SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hellisnothalffull,

Whilst I would like to say I can understand your therapist’s view, I in fact cannot. There is never ever a reason or excuse to cheat fact! and I can explain myself below in a second, in my opinion you need a new councillor who doesn’t sugarcoat BS.

I have been married to my emotionally inept husband for 25 years, I was 21 and him 20 when married and in the early years we had plenty of time and energy for each other, life and responsibilities get in the way and my H became so driven to provide for us he seemed to spend all his time and energy in to making money, I on the other hand put all my time and efforts in to being a good housewife and mother to our boys. I didn’t have many friends that I saw regularly and with no family to talk to the majority of human interaction was with my children, this left me feeling extremely lonely and isolated and the only thing I wanted when my husband came home from work was a little attention and to ‘feel seen’, of course he saw me with his eyes but I felt he saw me as an object and not a person for example, everyone has a TV, it’s just an object that stays there and you turn it on when you want to use it and turn it off when not required, it doesn’t need much maintenance, maybe the occasional dusting but if you get bored or have a little spare time on your hands you can always switch the TV on it’s excellent for entertainment purposes and it will stay there in the house until you need it again, it’s not going anywhere, who wants to come in your home and steal your TV?.
This is how I felt, he didn’t see ME as a woman with emotional needs, a person who he wanted to maintain a connection with anymore just an object that was there, I would speak to him about it on many occasion explaining I felt lonely, unloved and unseen only to be told I was complaining or he didn’t have time because of work commitments or I was too needy or we’re not kids anymore. I always explained it didn’t take much to make a woman feel seen but he just didn’t get it, he much preferred the TV.

As lonely, isolated, sad, depressed and unloved I felt it never EVER crossed my mind to go and seek validation from anyone else not once. There is never any excuse to go and destroy another human being ever. If you are not happy then leave.

Every woman has different needs, their idea of being seen may differ from mine and they should be asked to make a list of things they need but I just want to be seen as a person not an object, take an interest in me, ask about my day, ask me if I need anything, take me out somewhere, send me a couple of text messages through the day, flirt with me, show me you want me, smack my butt when you walk past me in the kitchen etc.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Bruce123

Whilst I would like to say I can understand your therapist’s view, I in fact cannot.

I read your whole post as basically affirming his therapist’s point of view.

His therapist isn’t saying it is ok to cheat. The therapist is saying there are improvements to be made. If not with the current wife, with the next one.

Who wants to be married to someone who isn’t truly present for you? Nobody.

Ask your therapist if she also thinks women get raped for wearing low-cut dresses, and if by wearing them they helped create the situation where they were raped.

I agree with ink and the others it’s hard to apply this once infidelity has occurred.

Like his wife I didn’t know what I wanted and that was my responsibility. I do not think it made me cheat or anything like that.. But part of why I didn’t know what I wanted is so did not feel like I ever had time or space to develop that. Part of that was my people pleasing and part of that is I do feel like a I had been taken advantage of, even if it wasn’t on purpose.

My answer was more about marriage and relationships in general. But putting in an investment into someone directly after an infidelity is to self abandon for you.

I still felt answering your question was important because I do think most people want these things in a relationship. I don’t think there is a gender divide on that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:44 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

…I do feel like a I had been taken advantage of, even if it wasn’t on purpose.

Understood about your situation, friend, and I am not doubting your experience. In mine, my wife did not work outside the house. She had seven years of not working outside the house, all the kids were in school, and she STILL would say she was the heavier burdened partner. I find that so infuriating, and all I can think is she picked up on the cultural vibes in the air and felt like it was a great way to be a victim (again). If I remember correctly, HINFH’s wife also does not work outside the home and I suspect their kids are well past diaper stage. The overall narrative of "emotional labor" inequalities carries very little weight with me if not closely examined in every individual case. In my case, I think it’s bullshit and that it would even come up in the area of explaining my stbxw’s infidelity is super frustrating.

ETA: to be very clear, I don’t think you are speaking to my situation. I am saying this in response to the overall discussion and trying to speak to HINFH to very carefully evaluate such a message.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:54 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

Oh I didn’t think it was a comparison at all. No worries. Every situation is different.

I was just agreeing that it’s good to think of there are deeper ways of being a partner. I don’t believe in the affair proof theories though. What I describe in my post are common marital problems. I felt conflicted answering but wanted to answer the what is being seen thing.

I think most couples experience disconnection especially with kids. It’s both people who need to look for it and repair it. I feel like I was always that partner who did and after a while it did make me feel frustrated in trying. It felt to me like I always loved him more than he did me and that’s where my work needed to happen. I am careful to notice things too, it takes both.

It’s not a healthy response ever to cheat and people are capable of finding people who do not have thats as a response to the lack of attention. I had a lot of other ways I could have tried to get him to see the issue. I just kept using the same ones which probably sounded more like nagging than having a constructive conversation.

I think I just get a little vulnerable sometimes talking about these things here because it’s hard for others to not draw conclusions about it. But I didn’t feel you were doing that. But I agree 100 percent with what you said about him not using this marriage as a measuring stick.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:02 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

For what it’s worth, I don’t fully know HINHF’s situation, and I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I think not feeling seen somehow justifies or even contributes to someone’s choice to cheat. And dysfunctional and/or self absorbed people are going to latch onto any excuse for their behavior that will assuage their conscience or make them look better in the eyes of others.

I was answering the question in the original post as someone who has benefited from my husband and I both trying to "see" each other more and connect more deeply. Our effort to do so came out of the complete (imperfect, unfinished) overhaul we’ve had to do in the wake of his affair, but it’s not really connected to it.

Thanks grieving that’s what I was trying to say but you did it better. It’s relationship stuff and it’s away from infidelity stuff.

Infidelity is caused by dysfunction in the ws not the marriage. I am trying to think the therapist sees areas hell may need to grow in for himself and improving his own EQ, regardless of his marriage.

Ask your therapist if she also thinks women get raped for wearing low-cut dresses, and if by wearing them they helped create the situation where they were raped

Underrated comment that rings true.

Imagine a therapist saying the following:

As a rape victim are you at fault for being raped? of course not.

However let's discuss your dress sense, overly trusting nature and the fact you were walking a street alone.

A therapist would never go there in this case yet are happy to with infidelity.

Underrated comment that rings true.

Imagine a therapist saying the following:

As a rape victim are you at fault for being raped? of course not.

However let's discuss your dress sense, overly trusting nature and the fact you were walking a street alone.

A therapist would never go there in this case yet are happy to with infidelity.

How does this answer the question that was asked…

But I am curious, what does it mean to be seen in a relationship?

There is a bizarre tendency in here to essentially encourage the BS to not introspect at all, to not ask if they could have done something different over the only things they control (their own actions), and to not learn anything from the affair. There is this belief that to do so means somehow taking blame for the affair. The inability to separate the two gets in the way.

It is a deep question, what does it mean to truly see someone, and the answer isn’t "I wouldn’t cheat, it’s not your fault, do women who wear sketchy clothing deserve to be raped?"

Edited to add I cross posted with house of plane but I largely agree. I think if this was the marriage counselor it would be more problematic because in those situations the therapist is relating it directly to his marriage. In that way I would readily agree to the rape comment.

It sounds more like, and I will wait for Hell to clarify, that the therapist thinks that there is some work for hell to do in order to be a better partner or have more success in relationships in general.

The intent of most IC is not to focus on the outcome of the relationship, but to focus on the healing that an individual needs to do. If the therapist thinks he is lacking in EQ which is what hell seems to be conveying, I think in essence they are saying "grow in these areas to have more success in relationships". In fact, I would say that improving one’s EQ in general makes them less susceptible to staying in a toxic relationship, and less susceptible to choosing or attracting the type of person his wife has been to him this far.

I think that’s very different than sitting in a room trying to force feed someone this shit sandwich telling them they deserved it and need to change.

If I am seeing that correctly, hell digging in and being introspective is different than victim blaming. we have to remember EQ includes having good boundaries with others, not abandoning themselves for relationships and a host of many things. But that’s all I will say - hopefully he will be back to clarify the point.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:33 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

I’ll make one more comment. When you truly see your spouse, setting aside all the habit and conceptions built up over the years, the taking for granted…when you drop the thinking and are actually just deeply present with them and watch with fresh eyes, unknowing the past…you may not like what you see. But it’s the truth.

For a spouse who has built up a facade of bulls*** to hide behind, it can be deeply disconcerting to actually be seen.

There is a bizarre tendency in here to essentially encourage the BS to not introspect at all, to not ask if they could have done something different over the only things they control (their own actions), and to not learn anything from the affair. There is this belief that to do so means somehow taking blame for the affair. The inability to separate the two gets in the way.

It is a deep question, what does it mean to truly see someone, and the answer isn’t "I wouldn’t cheat, it’s not your fault, do women who wear sketchy clothing deserve to be raped?"

I mean, is it bizarre? Does it make sense to ask a rape victim to introspect what they could do different? Or the victim of a burglary? The opening post starts with hell’s new IC dancing a very fine line with victim blaming (IMO) and then moves quickly into discussing how he can improve, because IC says guys like him tend to get cheated on.

And as I’ve already said, I have found it somewhat crazy making to attempt to over introspect when the person I was aggrevating with my supposed problematic behavior was not healthy but rather deceptive. There is a significant danger of taking on too much responsibility or just flat out learning wrong lessons. I can’t sort all that out, and my IC sure as heck can’t either.

I’ve decided to learn from the broad strokes. I was codependent, I’m working on that. I probably am an anxious attacher, but I’m honestly not certain given my only real experience is in relationship with her. I can happily take steps toward general mental and emotional healthiness. But I personally would not find it profitable from where I stand now to ask myself why I failed to "see her" and attempt to bolster my EQ in response. I now see her as too chaotic to help me learn about myself.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:56 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

What house of plane said.

Prior to my husband’s affair, we had a pretty good marriage. A great one, in many respects. But I don’t think we were particularly good at seeing each other when times got hard or busy or stressful. I may have been worse at that than him, because when times are hard I roll up my sleeves, neglect my emotional well being, and work myself to death fulfilling practical responsibilities and trying to meet everyone else’s needs. And doing that doesn’t actually put you in a good space to really see your spouse, even if you want to and mean to.

But I do not accept one iota of blame for my husband’s infidelity. It crushed me, and I did nothing at all to deserve it. But do I want to be open to introspection in ways that make me a better person with more fulfilling relationships? Absolutely.

In the OP:

She did hit me hard though last session. She said I wasn’t responsible for the affair, but that I do have to accept that I helped create a relationship where vulnerability existed for an affair. That my WW was very likely emotionally starved because of my lack of EI and detachment.

What the.....

I am sorry but this is nonsense. Your WW didn't cheat on you with the POSOM--AND betray your kids!--for the reason that because you were not 'EI'--whatever that really means. I mean think of it, did your WW end the affair with POSOM because of how your kids felt about him and how he treated them? Alright then, why is it that your (minor and possibly imaginary) faults mattered and POSOM's (huge and definitely real) faults, didn't.

Bigger post #23:

Ask your therapist if she also thinks women get raped for wearing low-cut dresses, and if by wearing them they helped create the situation where they were raped.

My thoughts exactly.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:51 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

No, not really. The problem is a lot of things she said I wasn’t doing were occurring during the early stages of the EA, so it’s hard to distinguish between what is a real issue vs what is an excuse to keep adding fuel to the EA.

That's good. Your wife seems to be very early in her owning her shit and may pounce on this as an opportunity to offload some of the blame for the A onto you. It's good that you want to be better, but this is a card you should probably play close to the chest.

[This message edited by 1994 at 6:45 PM, Sunday, March 9th]

I'll say more.

You were not a perfect husband. There was that time in 2017 when you brought home 1% lowfat milk when your WW wanted skim. That you are not perfect--that is because you and everyone else are HUMAN BEINGS who are not perfect, who are imperfect.

But it sure sounds like you sure were a GOOD husband. You at least tried to meet your WW's love languages and if you truly were not quite hitting the mark, your WW sure as hell could have done some searching herself so that the two of you connected. You sure as hell were a lot better to your WW than POSOM ever was.

I think more BHs actually need to be doing LESS introspection, and more realizing that they are simply throwing pearls to the swine.

I don’t know. I feel like introspection and focus on really seeing the other person are the best ways NOT to throw your pearls before swine.

In my case, introspection and focus on seeing my husband is taking place in the context of a good faith relationship (one damaged by infidelity, but where the good faith is real).

But in a bad-faith relationship, where a person is clamoring to be seen but is simultaneously dishonest and/or irredeemably dysfunctional, I think introspection and deliberate "seeing" will give you needed clarity about moving on.

My attempts to really see my husband (and vice versa) have improved and strengthened our relationship. But as I have made the effort to really see him, what I’ve seen hasn’t always been great. I’ve realized that in some ways (to use another biblical metaphor), he has feet of clay. Introspection and seeing him have made me realize that I put him and our relationship on a pedestal in some ways, and I’m more clear-sighted now.

Really, truly seeing your spouse will tell you a LOT. It can strengthen and deepen your relationship, or it can give you clarity about why you need to step away. Neither is a bad thing.

[This message edited by Grieving at 11:02 PM, Saturday, March 8th]

In my case, introspection and focus on seeing my husband is taking place in the context of a good faith relationship (one damaged by infidelity, but where the good faith is real).

I think this is an important context. Generally honest and good faith actors on both sides makes this worthwhile.

But in a non-good faith relationship, relationship, I think doing those things will give you needed clarity about moving on.

Only to a point, in my opinion. Trying to use the data of a lifetime spent with an emotionally unhealthy partner can just be a chaotic mind fuck. For those who believe they had a good partner and the A was a temporary lapse, then maybe this doesn’t apply. I don’t see my marriage that way. I see it as now seeing what has always been there. And now I believe I just need to stop trying to understand the past and move forward. In a very real sense, I think I got unlucky. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong person. I’m only fooling myself to think I can control that in the future by changing myself. So I walk forward believing I can handle what life has in store for me, so help me God.

I really appreciate everyone’s comments here, i have been reading and rereading them a lot. I’m not surprised at all that many BHs have responded saying that their WWs said something similar about not being seen as part of the discontent, and probably part of what they were getting from their AP.

I do have to defend my IC a little here. My previous IC absolutely put blame on me for the Affair which is why he is now my previous. I won’t tolerate that in the least. I don’t think my current IC is putting blame on me for the affair, but as Hiking said, my IC is really saying that I do introspection. It’s not that I am to blame for the affair, but I have to own my own responsibility for the relationship, and that if I continue as I am it is unlikely for me to ever have the relationship I want, regardless of who it’s with. I don’t think it’s wrong, and I should dig into myself no matter what happens in the future.

It’s tricky to walk this path for sure. Personally I believe my WW would have had the affair no matter what. I think once that EA started, nothing would have changed the outcome. Now that I have a much better understanding of the real timeline, a lot of our problems only got worse and nothing I did was right, right at the time where EA was in that grey area. (I know an A is an A, but the EA has an insidious ability in the beginning to not quite be an EA but still be one at the same time) It makes sense to me because she was looking for someone else. Can’t really compete with someone who always comes off as amazing lie that is though.

What I’m still trying to figure out is what introspection I could do. I read all of the comments, and it’s interesting from the BWs side, I did all of those things. I’d help WW with chores, id pick her slack when she had bad days, I even told her repeatedly how much i appreciated all of the behind the scenes work she took care of that I never knew about. I tried to get her really personal gifts of things I knew she would love, like her favorite jewelry.(which of course she wore repeatedly when sewing AP just can’t have anything special can we), I made plans to take kids out of the house so she could have a day to herself. WW did tell me that I put to much on and that she felt she wasn’t needed because I did too much? Sometimes feels like I can’t win.

Bruce-
Your post really stuck me. I know my WW was feeling like you, that she was just a wife accessory. I’m trying very hard to hear and understand that separate from her affair. It’s not even about R with her or not at this point, it’s about understanding my mistakes.