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I posted my relationship troubles under "realizing the damage done" but this particular comment was made to me by my probably ex gf. She asked me if I thought I was a narcissist.

I've never thought of myself as a narcissist or having narcissistic traits. Quite the opposite actually. That is her perception though even though she described 75% of the relationship being good.

She thinks I gaslight her, she doesn't feel validated, our relationship started quickly, she feels criticized, etc. All the symptoms of a narcissist. I just don't think I am. I could surely have done better on things, I just think the relationship ran into trouble and the symptoms feel like they are the traits of a narcissist.

This does bother me, and I'm going bring it up in IC. I want to validate her feelings, apologize when I'm wrong (she says I never do, I think I do my share), yes the probable break up upsets me and I'm trying to keep her in my life, yes we fought when she seemed done with the relationship, she exhibits all the symptoms of being gaslighted, I think I exhibit empathy - I'm concerned and interested in how she's feeling. I don't think I'm anything special or warrant special treatment.

I scored a 2 on a narcissistic personality quiz. Over 20 is considered being a narcissist.

My question, can a relationship going bad feel like it was inflicted with a narcissist and it simply had issues that made if feel that way? I'm of the mindset that our troubles can be attributed to poor communication and poor conflict management in the relationship, by both of us.

Thanks!

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 9:11 AM, July 17th (Friday)]

Hey Kintsugi - I read some of your other thread in NB about the conflicts with your new relationship. So here are some of my musings on things:

Being diagnosed as NPD is something very specific and can only be confirmed by a trained professional.

Do you have narcissistic traits? Maybe. Probably. I think we all do from time to time in our personal relationships. Passive aggressive stuff is never attractive, but it's a safe zone for a lot of us especially during conflict.

Empathy - you said "exhibit." Internalize? And then express it? Do you really feel it? Like spend a little mental time in someone else's shoes? It's difficult for everyone I think, but unless you really are NPD, it just takes a lot of practice and some skills that I'm sure you have.

Have you both thought about not making big broad black and white decisions about anything right now? I mean, my IC is really encouraging me to check myself on all or nothing thinking these days. It's kind of our instinct these days to fight or flight and we can use that to attempt to control our environment when we feel unsafe. Maybe one or both of you are doing that?

Remember that a lot of the Gottman horsemen tend to ride into town when we feel fear, guilt or shame. So are you feeling any of those things and perhaps it's got you flailing?

Also remember that ending a relationship is not a failure. Sometimes it's the much braver thing than staying in a shitty situation. Or one where really you're just on different pages. Staying and working on things that are built on a good foundation is also brave and also not a failure. See black and white thinking above.

I would approach this like I approach my advice to most folks in the aftermath of a Dday when they ask "What should I do? How do I proceed?" I always say something like work on your healing. Get out of over-diagnosing the relationship (and in your case refrain from labeling yourself) and focus on you. Keep driving your bus in a healthy way and see if there's room for her at some point or not?

I'm really rambl-y today...

[This message edited by Chili at 4:31 PM, July 16th (Thursday)]

can a relationship going bad feel like it was inflicted with a narcissist and it simply had issues that made if feel that way?

A true narcissist will never ask that question to begin with

I'm trying to keep her in my life

Why?

{{armchair psychologist here}}

Honestly, it sounds like she is the narcissist. Did she actually use the term "gaslight"? I am seeing a lot of blame and projection. The fact that you are asking yourself these honest questions does not hint of being a narcissist.

Just my two cents.

The fact you are questioning this points to probably not a full fledged narcissist. Probably floating traits, I think we all have them from childhood and then learn to respect others and overcome the traits as we grow. Narcissist's don't learn that way in my opinion.

Think back. Review what gas-lighting is and be honest with yourself. If you are still speaking you could always ask her for specific examples.

It should be a clear answer. Other than this, if you have to work so hard on this relationship, is it worth it? I have to tell you, being single is drama-free on this front and quite enjoyable in that way. You may just be putting off being single as opposed to really wanting to continue this relationship. Only you can truly be the judge of that.

[This message edited by Anna123 at 9:11 AM, July 17th (Friday)]

{{armchair psychologist here}}

Honestly, it sounds like she is the narcissist. Did she actually use the term "gaslight"? I am seeing a lot of blame and projection. The fact that you are asking yourself these honest questions does not hint of being a narcissist.

Just my two cents.

Make that four cents.

The email she sent you contained this:

" I have always felt if I just don’t do or say anything that may upset you; then things will be okay. It is like walking on eggshells. I don’t feel like I can be totally myself and that I can say what I want to say or feel 100% of the time. It feels like my motives are being questioned and it has affected my self-esteem." Is this true?

It also contained this:

"I doubt myself and I feel like what I do is not good enough for you. I am often confused about what transpired in an argument/fight."

She's confused because you don't listen to her. You go silent and then when you're over it, she's supposed to be as well. You outright admitted this in your previous thread. While not narcissistic, I think it is very selfish.

Also in the email:

"I am made to feel guilty; you say I’m being exaggerative, insecure, defensive. I’m made to feel blamed for when it goes wrong."

Is this true? Do you accuse her of these things when she's trying to explain herself during an argument?

And:

"I am told how I should feel or what I am feeling, and I am not heard and not understood by you."

Is this true? Do you explain her own feelings to her?

You also explained that when you get angry, you make her leave your house and then don't speak to her until you've calm down. And by that point she's supposed to have calmed down as well and should have nothing further to discuss.

I think you're selfish. That's only if anything she said in that email is true. Certainly not a narcissist. Really re-read what she wrote to you and think about it.

Do you have narcissistic traits? Maybe. Probably.

Thanks Chili. I've come to the realization that my behavior has been selfish. I thought my way of dealing with conflict, asking her to leave and cool off overnight, was my way of dealing with the situation, men and woman wired differently, that sort of thing. I knew it hurt her, but I selfishly focused on what I thought was my own need, and she was being the selfish one. I was so wrong.

Think back. Review what gas-lighting is and be honest with yourself.

Thanks Anna. I've given this one a lot of thought, yes, there are times when responded with "I was just joking" when she became upset with something and even something like,"you're too sensitive" and I know there are times that I didn't and responded more appropriately. I do think she is a bit needy, something I've concluded during the relationship and she would 'validation shop" at times asking, "are you proud of me?" The correct answer is "of course" but I didn't say that. The question struck me as almost something a child might ask a parent and I made that very comment. Was she simply seeking validation? Yes. Would I handle it differently today? Absolutely.

I think it is very selfish.

Thanks TKOGA. Yes, I have been selfish, I see that now.

Also in the email:

"I am made to feel guilty; you say I’m being exaggerative, insecure, defensive. I’m made to feel blamed for when it goes wrong."

She feels how she feels. I didn't agree with some of what she wrote. I don't ever recall attacking her in that manner, saying she was exaggerating, calling her insecure. I have entered the term "defensive" into the last fight we have that prompted the break up. Like much of what she's wrote about, I have no idea what "it" is. She's spoken largely in non-specific generalities.

And:

"I am told how I should feel or what I am feeling, and I am not heard and not understood by you."

Is this true? Do you explain her own feelings to her?

I would never tell her what she is feeling or should feel. I've been around long enough to know they are hers. If she is interpreting in a fight that I allude to she being defensive, ok, I've done that in one example I can think of. Honestly, I get the sense she interprets disagreement to be invalidation and dismissal of her feelings. This has been a long standing frustration for me.

And by that point she's supposed to have calmed down as well and should have nothing further to discuss.

Looking back, we had plenty to discuss, we just never did it. I was of the mindset it's over, it's behind us let's move on. We never came back to it because if I recall correctly, the fight would resurrect. I'm learning the reason that probably happened is because we failed to address it constructively. Coming back to it would be laced with accusatory statements, like, "you always do this..." "you never do that."

I would ask her to leave for the same reason. Our arguments were accusatory and filled with criticism. I often felt attacked, and the textbook overwhelmed physiological flooding would occur and I'm wired to stonewall, the last of the Four Horseman. That was wrong on my part, but that was the pattern I'm sad to say.

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 2:32 PM, July 17th (Friday)]

Kintsugi, I believe your biggest problem is the women you choose followed by the even bigger problem of choosing to give them a million chances until one of your explodes and the relationship ends. Your account of the relationship in only a 3 year span is just a mass of drama. Unexpected pregnancy, miscarriage, engagement, called off wedding, hurt families, trauma, arguing all the time. Much of which would have been avoidable if you had listened to the red flags she was throwing up and gotten out before this point. And yet here you are wishing she would come back so the drama could continue! Are you sure you're not addicted to the emotional roller coaster?

Why do you love women who fight with you so much? Why is love and frequently heated arguments tied in your mind? Why is love to you difficult and painful instead of uplifting and comforting? Get yourself an IC and figure that out.

Pick up these books:

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover

"Freedom from Toxic Relationships" by Avril Carruthers

"The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us" by Ross Rosenburg

And Google Karpman's Drama Triangle. Teach yourself to break the cycle or your next girlfriend will be just as toxic and bring you just as much drama.

And Google Karpman's Drama Triangle.

Wow Neko, this is truly interesting stuff, thank you.

I think we both bounce between victim, rescuer and persecutor. Depending on the situation.

"The victim starts or catalyzes the formation of the drama triangle. The victim, if not being "persecuted", will seek out a persecutor and also a rescuer who will "save" the day but also perpetuate the victim 's negative feelings. According to Karpman, any time that we don’t take responsibility for our feelings and make ourselves out to be a victim, we are setting the stage for a drama triangle to form, and failure."

I'm all for validating feelings in a relationship, but I'm not sure I could ever meet the expectations, my mistakes aside. She wants her feelings validated, but felt she could never tell me what she thought was wrong (the victim). I do want to rescue her (the rescuer), to make it better. The term "victim" is how I was perceiving her current state of mind even prior to reading up on Drama Triangle. She's now taken on the role of both victim and persecutor.

I've described to her my feelings that I was being punished as our interaction escalated. I think I'm big time the rescuer at the present moment.

"The victim, for example, may retaliate and punish the persecutor who, in turn, feels like a victim. The rescuer may be attacked for doing too much or too little for the victim or to the persecutor, respectively, and feel like a victim."

Truly informative!!

[This message edited by Kintsugi at 5:55 PM, July 17th (Friday)]

No you are not. Most narcissistic people would never ask 😂

Agree, Narcissists would never ask the question.

I was completely in the dark about NPD and had no idea what gaslighting was until several close friends and observers of my marriage, bluntly told that I was married to a narcissist and I need to be extremely careful about how I extricate myself from the marriage as he was dangerous.

He was a dangerous husband and became even more so when I dared leave him.

He wanted And got payback badly. Hence why he’s now stalling the Divorce. More time to punish me.