SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@InkHulk

Unfortunately that's an entirely separate issue. Someone can lie about you to smear your character at any time. This is different from people's judgments about the actual choices you've made.

My advice to you would have been to more radically control the narrative but that's not relevant to this.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:54 PM, Monday, July 27th]

Does anybody actually have control over the narrative

Right, cause if only I had gone on the offensive then her father could have felt disgusted at his daughter and all would be right with the world.

Trying to manage perceptions when your world is on fire is a fools errand. Even in the best of times it is grasping at the wind.

There are so many weighty considerations already in play. What other people may or may not think of you is vanity and I think it’s foolish to try to focus his attention on it.

I don't give a fuck what most people think of me or my choices in life. If you're going through life desperately seeking external validation, being an authentic human being becomes impossible. Without authenticity, finding peace is equally impossible.

(As a small caveat, I do value the opinions of people I love and respect. And in my professional life, it's important to consider how the boss values my work)

WBFA, I understand your opposition to reconciliation. What I do not agree with, however, is your characterization of men who choose to attempt reconciliation. You're free, of course, to judge them as you wish. That's not me, though. I take a higher road.

Does anybody actually have control over the narrative

To a degree. It's circumstantial and I suppose it depends on what lengths you are willing to go to.

In my own situation, given that the affair was between my partner and my best friend, they immediately launched a full-blown smear campaign against me. They denied everything to anyone who would listen, actively trying to convince our inner circle that I had completely lost my mind and was just seeing ghosts. I didn't have absolute, ironclad proof at first—no intimate photos or full transcripts—just a suspicious taxi receipt and screenshots of deleted middle-of-the-night text messages. It was enough to know I wasn't crazy, but hardly a smoking gun.

Determined not to be painted as the paranoid ex, I made it my personal mission to show every shred of evidence I had to anyone willing to listen, eventually winning people over. The absolute nail in their coffin came when one of their few remaining loyal defenders caught them kissing in public. Backed into a corner, they swore blind that they had only started dating after the breakup, driven together by my groundless accusations. Naturally, even their last handful of believers saw straight through that fairytale. I still fondly recall the excruciating pub meetup where the poor, deeply awkward guy who caught them practically begged for my forgiveness for doubting me.
Ultimately, I invested heavily in controlling the narrative, and it paid off handsomely. By the end of it, they hadn't managed to keep a single friend from our massive shared circle, eventually exiling themselves to a miserable part of town, never to be seen again.

Which brings me back to the main point: if you actually have total, undeniable proof—full screenshot receipts, videos, or a written confession—you have all the leverage. You don't just have to sit back and take the social fallout; the narrative can absolutely be controlled. If I had the transcripts Id have publicly spammed everything that I was within my legal right to.

Sometimes you can present people with irrefutable evidence, and they will still choose not to believe your side of the story. Sometimes people get caught, and just as easily as the WS rationalizes and justifies the behavior, so, too, can an observer.

@Morbs

Sometimes you can present people with irrefutable evidence, and they will still choose not to believe your side of the story. Sometimes people get caught, and just as easily as the WS rationalizes and justifies the behavior, so, too, can an observer.

Yes, that is true in some cases. Certain people simply cannot be convinced because their bias runs too deep—family members are particularly prone to this.

That being said, if a WS goes around claiming, "I never cheated, they're crazy," and you present irrefutable evidence that they did, their tactics usually shift to: "Okay, fine, I did—but only because he was emotionally abusive." Even if some observers enable that excuse, catching the WS in a blatant lie will still convince a lot of people. It’s the exact reason trust is so hard to rebuild after infidelity: if someone lies about X, why should anyone believe them about Y?

Similarly, a widely shared piece of advice on these forums is to follow a rough script prior to confrontation. Before revealing any evidence, the BS records the conversation and asks a series of baseline questions:

"Are you happy in this marriage?"

"Have I ever been abusive to you?"

"Have you ever suspected me of cheating?"

Only after getting those answers on record do you confront them with the evidence.

While this won't work in every single scenario, it does leave you with audio proof that they previously claimed to be happy, faced no abuse, and had no grievances. That single recording strips away the most common tactics waywards use to rewrite history and control the narrative.

All that being said, the percentage of betrayed spouses with the self-restraint and composure to execute a plan like that before confronting their partner is likely very low.

When I went through this, the narrative spinning was by far the most damaging element for me. My former friend even went as far as saying I was abusive to justify what he did—as if he were somehow "saving" her from hell. (The irony was that similar rumours had whirled around him years prior, which, to my mind, held a fair bit of validity.) Luckily, even my ex denied his claims. I can't imagine the pain it would have caused if she had gone along with that tactic to justify their actions. It’s a strategy widely used by unrepentant cheaters, and it’s inhumanely evil.

It's also astonishing how far these rumours spread. Whilst I won over all of my actual friends, I know for a fact that the record was never set straight among acquaintances or friends-of-friends. Years later—well after it had all blown over—my current partner even overheard these claims during a gossip session. Thankfully, the person repeating it remarked, "Apparently he was very abusive, but I'm not sure I believe it given they were clearly cheating—it just seems like a lie."

When we started dating, my partner brought up the situation and heard me out. I was able to explain the context and point out that even my ex had denied those claims. Still, it hurts to know there is probably a small percentage of people walking around today who genuinely think I'm an abuser. Hopefully, very few.

So again, is it always possible to convince everyone of everything? No. But I would highly recommend radically and aggressively controlling the narrative as much as you possibly can. These accusations float far further afield than you can imagine and cause severe, lasting damage.

Some people believe their partner or ex would "never do this to them", but all I can say is: you'd be surprised. If they are willing to crush you, your family, and your relationship, is damaging your reputation really that much of a stretch? And to those who take the stance of "I don't care what other people think"—I honestly believe that is a naive position to hold.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:18 AM, Tuesday, July 28th]

It’s the exact reason trust is so hard to rebuild after infidelity: if someone lies about X, why should anyone believe them about Y?

Because they are the liar's friends and family, and sometimes their sense of loyalty, or love for that person and consequent desire to see them as a good person, overcomes their ability to logic. I know, inconceivable to analytical people like us. But sadly true.

While this won't work in every single scenario, it does leave you with audio proof that they previously claimed to be happy, faced no abuse, and had no grievances. That single recording strips away the most common tactics waywards use to rewrite history and control the narrative.

What if they do respond that they are unhappy and have grievances? What if they told you their grievances before and nothing changed, and so they just tell you everything's fine when it's not...?

But I could see how that would be useful for the BS. For the F&F of the WS? Again, sometimes presented evidence doesn't go over the way we plan. What if they are still convinced the BS is an abuser and "coerced" the WS into saying that they were happy and not being abused?

We only control what we, ourselves believe... And even then, sometimes our perceptions and beliefs take a wrong turn into delusion. That is not to say that what other people think doesn't affect us. it's just that sometimes we can't change it, and that has to be accepted rather than continually stressed over. Especially if it's the opinion of people who don't benefit our lives in any way.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:51 PM, Tuesday, July 28th]

Because they are the liar's friends and family, and sometimes their sense of loyalty, or love for that person and consequent desire to see them as a good person, overcomes their ability to logic. I know, inconceivable to analytical people like us. But sadly true.

That is a very sweeping statement. While I admit a small percentage of people won't listen despite the facts, in my lived experience, the truth often does prevail but you have to fight for it. The more evidence you have, the better. To be honest, I'd suspect even wayward parents will know deep down what went on but won't admit it. Beyond an immediate mother or father whose bias is absolute, most reasonable observers will eventually shift their perspective when presented with hard evidence.

What if they do respond that they are unhappy and have grievances? What if they told you their grievances before and nothing changed, and so they just tell you everything's fine when it's not...?

Then it would be less useful, obviously.

No single strategy is a silver bullet for every scenario. But speaking from my own experience, if I had possessed the wherewithal and presence of mind to do this alongside rock-solid evidence, it would have been extraordinarily helpful in dismantling the lies that followed.

What if they are still convinced the BS is an abuser and "coerced" the WS into saying that they were happy and not being abused?

Yes, some people will remain willfully blind regardless of how hard the truth slaps them in the face. But are you seriously suggesting it's better to have no evidence at all when facing malicious narrative control? Having proof on record gives you ground to stand on; having nothing leaves the floor entirely to the liar.

That is not to say that what other people think doesn't affect us. it's just that sometimes we can't change it, and that has to be accepted rather than continually stressed over. Especially if it's the opinion of people who don't benefit our lives in any way.

Sometimes you can't change minds, but in my case, I did. Every single person who mattered was won over by the truth—a close-knit circle of 25 to 30 mutual friends. These were couples we went on massive villa holidays with, people who were deeply embedded in our lives. I fought hard for the truth, and it prevailed.

So is the alternative advice really to just roll over and let a cheater poison the minds of the people who matter most to you? I refuse to accept that.

DRS in your example, the "nail in the coffin" as you said was an event that you didn't have control over. It's possible without your luck that the cheaters carried on so publicly, your efforts would not have paid off so well.

Then, it's one thing to share your story, but another to assert that your approach will get the same results generally. I think you overestimate and overgeneralize the leverage from "truth." There are power dynamics which can interfere with the effectiveness of truth and the safety of sharing it. I would be cautious about evangelizing the go convince everybody approach you took. I know your mindset is very anchored by this idea of absolute truth, but in reality truth is not enough sometimes. Some people have a lot to lose from your approach - I don't think it should be that way, but it needs to be considered before acting.

DRS in your example, the "nail in the coffin" as you said was an event that you didn't have control over. It's possible without your luck that the cheaters carried on so publicly, your efforts would not have paid off so well.

My efforts had already turned the tide with the vast majority of people long before that moment occurred; that event simply converted the remaining few. Even then, those last holdouts only saw the light because they witnessed that public behaviour in conjunction with the groundwork I had laid to control the narrative. The two went hand-in-hand—it wasn't a case of one or the other.

Furthermore, in many other cases, betrayed spouses possess far more compelling and direct evidence than I had at the time.

Then, it's one thing to share your story, but another to assert that your approach will get the same results generally. I think you overestimate and overgeneralize the leverage from "truth." There are power dynamics which can interfere with the effectiveness of truth and the safety of sharing it. I would be cautious about evangelizing the go convince everybody approach you took. I know your mindset is very anchored by this idea of absolute truth, but in reality truth is not enough sometimes. Some people have a lot to lose from your approach - I don't think it should be that way, but it needs to be considered before acting.

I am not "evangelising"—I am highlighting the clear benefits of taking an active stance rather than a passive one. I am more than happy to concede that this approach will not fit every single scenario. No individual piece of advice ever does.

I don't see how highlighting the clear benefits of something is incongruent with evangelizing. The word's etymology comes from old Greek meaning "bringing good news," and evangelical activity largely involves...highlighting clear benefits of the thing. You're the one who advocates absolute truth all over these forums - why is being labeled as evangelical a problem? It's a fitting label, DRS.

Those of us in the unfortunate position of dealing with "truthiness" and dysfunctional social systems, I see you, and you don't deserve judgement for making your judgement call in the face of unfairness.

This post has taken an interesting turn.

From my standpoint, the people who believe in us do so because they choose to. And they choose to because they know us and love us and believe in us.

Sometimes you can't change minds, but in my case, I did. Every single person who mattered was won over by the truth—a close-knit circle of 25 to 30 mutual friends. These were couples we went on massive villa holidays with, people who were deeply embedded in our lives. I fought hard for the truth, and it prevailed.

While I can appreciate you still wanted their friendship, if they would believe these things about you isn’t that in itself - betrayal?

It’s so funny because we are exactly reversed here:

I believe that the person closest to me betrayed me. But I also believe him when he says he regrets it, learned from it, and it won’t happen again. I was willing to let him fight for that redemption as I did with him. You would not have allowed either fight.

But if I had a bunch of "friends" that ultimately just blatantly believed lies about me and likely talked about me behind my back—-well excuse my language—fuck them. I don’t care what they think and I don’t need them in my life. I wouldn’t prove jack squat to them.

Neither position is right or wrong. They are different.

But I can understand why ink would call it a fools errand.

It depends on where Gemmy falls on this if it’s a hill to die on—-there are people in your life, like in-laws, who you may or may not care what they think about you because you have no respect for them to begin with.

For me, I would want the wife to clear up and admit to lying because it shows a turn on her character, but I would also expect her to unfriend people who supported her unhealthy behaviors. If you are changing from the ground up you need better friends who don’t -dare I say—-snicker—-yeah I know—-but who snicker with you. These are not people who will help you grow and I would be damned if I were Gemmy to give a flying fig about what someone like that thinks.

I do appreciate you relating through your personal story because I think that makes you more relatable to the group, for us to understand some of the struggles you went through, you cared about what these people think. So your advice is relatable if Gemmy does too.

I believe there needs to be some balancing of the scale of justice but I wouldn’t put any effort in clearing my name with them. That’s her job - it was her doing and her job to do the undoing.

I am not sure how much these people matter to him—I read his issue as really just being thunderstruck that this was what his wife was saying behind his back. And I think without some serious moves in her part to show him that she does not believe what she told them, well let’s just say it’s not looking good for her.

In a scenario where someone cheated and there was no talking shit, there is enough mountains to climb to prove you love and want to be with this person —- but the more evidence you uncover that says different the bigger the mind fuck. The deeper the ws is going to have to dig and make significant amendments to start earning trust again.

I read Gemmy as being concerned with THAT. Understandably so. I am not sure he has the bandwidth to deal with this fresh trauma with his wife and fight for the truth with people who we don’t even know if he likes or respects.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:14 PM, Tuesday, July 28th]

Thanks for wrangling the thread back to where it's supposed to be, HikingOut. I was trying to think of a way to do that but all I could come up with was, "Well. Anyway..." 😬😅

Sorry I have been away for a bit.

I am not sure how much these people matter to him—I read his issue as really just being thunderstruck that this was what his wife was saying behind his back. And I think without some serious moves in her part to show him that she does not believe what she told them, well let’s just say it’s not looking good for her.

This is exactly what absolutely took what little ground was left away. I really do not have the wherewithal to fight this at all, nor do I care to. I have little to no respect for everyone that she has done this with, allowing it to be done in the first place.

I believe there needs to be some balancing of the scale of justice but I wouldn’t put any effort in clearing my name with them. That’s her job - it was her doing and her job to do the undoing.

And she has proven over and over that this is not a priority for her. I am really just so exhausted inside and out that I have turned what little emotional energy remains to my children and myself. She feels this and is starting to panic and scramble, her rock has slipped away.

And I do not believe that she reads this at all, she has had seven months to read 1 book I gave her and it is still not read.

I have turned what little emotional energy remains to my children and myself. She feels this and is starting to panic and scramble, her rock has slipped away.

Yes, the beginning of detachment. This is exactly what I would lean into at this juncture.

I would also say if she is scared enough this is exactly where I would come to figure more out. She should be scared of losing you and stop leaning into the complacency. But even more—-if she has any conscience whatsoever, she needs to realize this is not who she wants to be and start standing upright. It’s getting to sink or swim here.

I think she does want to be a better person and is starting to make realizations she had never considered before. I received the "full" disclosure last night and have settled in my own mind that this is the extent ofg what I will ever know. I have come to terms with that is really all I need to know moving forward. My therapist is setting goals with me for self awareness and happiness marks, small steps at a time. She believes I should take a six month stress leave and really sort myself out, but I feel I am better suited to do so while working. We need the money, and work is somewhere I have thrived. I am going back to the gym four times a week and have made it a priority to play games with the children at least a few times a week.

The disconnect has been hard for me, I was much more attached than I ever admitted even to myself to be honest.

Of course it is brutal. Keep taking the right steps for you. It’s normal that you wood be very attached to a woman who you have been with since you were young, and I know she likely still has many good aspects to her. And I hope she succeeds in her efforts, I know it’s possible. She has to drive it though and it doesn’t sound like she is there yet.

Keep focusing on you, you are taking the right steps for your healing investing in yourself. That will lead you to being more prepared either way it falls.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:28 PM, Wednesday, July 29th]

The disconnect has been hard for me, I was much more attached than I ever admitted even to myself to be honest.

Yes, sir! Detaching is hard. The bonds we form are powerful.

Keep in mind that detaching doesn't mean severing those bonds. It's about separating our issues and clarifying dynamics. It's about finding our own peace.

Focus on you, your recovery and healing. You're going to be okay, Gemmy.

Keep in mind that detaching doesn't mean severing those bonds. It's about separating our issues and clarifying dynamics. It's about finding our own peace.

Personally, I wasn't able to separate those two things. Detaching also weakened the bonds and the feelings of love over time. Hard to say how much was me and how much was STBWX's behavior at the time, but whatever the reasons, detachment and losing love happened at the same time for me.

Gemmy, whatever path you take, the one that leads to your well-being is paramount. You can deal with any side effects as they come. I'm glad you've got a good therapist on your side.