SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good morning, friends.

I just bounced over from my post in the General forum. I was astutely advised that I might be less triggered here.

Long story short. I met my wife when she was 15 and I was 17. I've never been with anyone but her, and now I'm 62 and she's 60. Weeks before our wedding day, she "slept" with a "man" from work. She was reportedly intimate with him for at least 2+ years and maintained contact via phone and letters through at least 12 years after our wedding—25 years ago.

Despite her actions, I am in love with her, and we are working to make things work—now, seeing my psychiatrist together.

Here is my problem, and I'm hoping to have the benefit of some of your insights: My wife has never told the same story twice. Every single time she speaks about him, there is a changing narrative. I’m having difficulty coping with reality, when I don’t know what reality is. Without honesty and full transparency, I feel like her changing stories are a continued betrayal.

How do you suggest I cope with this?

Thank you.

low tide,

I'm sorry that you are struggling. It's an issue that many others, including myself, found difficult. I followed your other post. It's a general rule at SI that one post should not refer to or discuss another post, but I hope I'm allowed a small amount of lee way here.

I would encourage you to separate actual facts of the affair from interpreted narratives that include motivation or feelings. For example, in the other post you stated that your WW's story doesn't make sense because she has said that the AP only saw each other at work or to have sex at AP's apartment. It sounds like she has maintained that as a fact for years. You said it doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand how or why anyone would do that. Ok, I agree with the statement to the extent that I wouldn't do many of the things a wayward does or think and feel the way they do. But that doesn't mean much. With my WH, I have learned that we often weren't thinking or feeling the same. His reality was not mine, and it's still not a full match with mine. Maybe it's a little closer after 9 years out. I can't definitely know.

I have spent hours reading from waywards here and on adultery forums trying to understand. I might have a slightly better understanding. All waywards are not all the same for one thing. Reading from one may or may not give insight to another wayward. At some point, I did throw up my hands and concede that I don't fully understand his affair and probably never will. Some of it seems crazy illogical. I can accept that.

Another thing that has confused me with reconciliation is that my WH's internal narrative of himself before, during, and after the affair changed through therapy and introspection and time. As an example, your wayward may initially say the motivation for the affair was about having fun and an escape. Later, they may focus more on why they thought they needed an escape and what was going on in their past and their other relationships. It sounds like a new story, but it's a deeper understanding of themselves. But I don't know. My impression is that your WW is not particularly introspective or undergone therapy. Maybe she won't get there.

Anyway, those two examples above are different than her changing physical facts of the affair or the individual facts being something that is physically possible.

Good morning, KitchenDepth5551.

Thank you for sharing. While I may not fully understand your impressions, I appreciate your interest and compassion in revisiting my story and trying to help.

I can't explain why I remain obsessed with my wife's infidelity. Particularly in light of the fact that it reportedly ended 25 or so years ago. The only thing that eats at me every day, and I shared in our first session with my psychiatrist yesterday, was that I’m having difficulty coping with reality, when I don’t know what reality is. My wife's disclosures about her infidelity are always different (e.g., where, when, why....). Without honesty and full transparency, I feel like my wife's changing stories are a continued betrayal.

I'm wondering if others who have pursued reconciliation have or continue to experience this. My best and closest friend, my wife, continues to lie, leaving me feeling vulnerable and hurting.

Can someone offer me help in overcoming this obsession? Someone who has walked this path.

—Trickled to Death

I apologize if I misunderstood. The only example you have given is one where you don't believe her details because they don't make sense to you. That's not a changing detail or trickle truth to me. It's you not accepting that detail as fact. It may not be fact or it may be fact.

I have not experienced my WH changing major details of what, where, and when facts, past an initial full disclosure period. Maybe small additions or minor modifications, so maybe I'm not the best person to respond. There aren't any facts that conflict in his story. However, the why has changed over time. I don't consider that the same.

I would not be able to reconcile if I did not believe I had the majority of the physical events. I don't think I will get all the minor details. Obviously, I draw a line somewhere about what is major or minor. I don't know if I'm getting the majority of the truth about why and everything he was feeling and thinking. There's no way to verify that. I trust I am. I don't understand it though.

You consider your wife's incapacity to tell the truth an illness, perhaps mental illness? That means she has no agency in the telling of the truth. Therefore, she has no responsibility, right? And your marital vows say that you will stay with her through that. I don't see any choice in that situation for you. If she has no capacity to tell the truth, and you are staying; find some way to let it go. I don't have advice for how. I wouldn't do that.

In my opinion if her answers to the same questions keep changing then she is just lying to you to protect herself. A wise man once said tell the truth and you have nothing to remember, well that holds true

Your brain will not be able to move forward if it believes it doesn't know the true answers to your questions. Different people need to know different amounts of information in order to move forward. Some people want every minute detail of the affair and others want just Broad Strokes

How can you put Faith in her desire to reconcile if you believe she is lying? The answer is you cannot.

You can sit down and tell her that this relationship is not repairable if she cannot tell you the truth and if she can't then you need to look at ending it

Many WS's will trickle truth because they fear giving you too much information will make you leave but constantly wondering if you don't know everything or that you've been lied to will just destroy the relationship

One of the surest ways to stop trickle truth is a complete written timeline and polygraph to confirm.

This advice is the same in any part of this forum.

The way our MC/IC explained it — for some WS, they are certain the next thing they say about the A will be the straw that breaks the back of the M.

My wife’s story changed a lot from her initial confession, which I was glad she finally told me about the A at all, to what the truth really was.

The A went from a one-night, to six months to….four years.

For me, I have a very strong memory, so I was able to put together the timeline much faster than my wife, based on my work travel.

Anyway, it took about six months before my wife fully understood that I required a FULL accounting in order to understand what it was I was being asked to process. I also wanted a full accounting of the time and effort taken away from our M.

The most powerful revelation to my wife was when I asked her to imagine if she had spent half of that energy and effort on us, how much better our lives would have been at the time.

From that moment on, I had a spouse who was all in on the truth, all in on helping heal the relationship and all in on the work she would need to do to be a safer partner.

Your wife is trying to find a narrative that does the least damage possible, which, in and of itself causes MORE damage.

The faster she owns it all (since marriage can’t cause anyone to ever cheat) and the faster she finds the courage to explain the full truth, the sooner you can decide your path forward.

Thanks for sharing. I'm hopeful that having a safe place to share and be accountable will yield honest disclosure.

In the meantime, any thoughts on controlling my obsessive thinking—this has been going on for years? I've tried flooding, distraction, and thought-stopping. Nothing stops the pain.

I suppose for one thing, I am making a distinction between facts of who, what, when, and where that you can confirm to a reasonable doubt and what you can never know like why. And how do I personally mentally handle the difference all these years out?

One of the surest ways to stop trickle truth is a complete written timeline and polygraph to confirm.

You can do this. My understanding from talking to polygraphers is that you can't use a polygraph to ask thinking or feeling questions. You can not expect a reliable answer from "Did you love her? Were you thinking of divorcing me? Did you have an affair because x?" for example. I have a polygraph and timeline. It only gives me a small amount of comfort about actual physical facts.

The who, what, when, and where all are facts. If they conflict or change over time, especially in a major way, then there is obviously an untruth. The person saying this may be incapable of telling or knowing the truth. Or they just don't want to tell it to you. Does your wayward wife have the capacity and desire to tell the truth? If the answer is yes, then she is lying. If it is not, well I don't know what to do with that. I would probably just leave the marriage. An annulled marriage in the Catholic church, for example, means one party was not capable of following those vows; and therefore the marriage is invalid because they can't be held to them.

I am going to state more clearly here that without you giving specific examples of what your WW is saying or doing, it would be hard for others to make conclusions based on their own experiences.

What about the why? The answers to what they were thinking and feeling. There's no way for me to know other than my wayward husband telling me. It's in his head and heart. If his answers are congruent to how he acts, then I can feel safe and secure. If they are not, I will presume he does not feel what he says. However, I really can't know. How do I deal with that? It's his reality. It's in his head. I feel sorry for him if he lies and does not want a true connection and the truth. What I see now, with my own eyes, is how he treats me. I can obsess that I'm wrong about it. What if he's been lying this whole time? I chose not to obsess. My reality is still mine even if he is 100% lying about how he feels.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 7:45 PM, Thursday, September 11th]

Hey LT-

In the meantime, any thoughts on controlling my obsessive thinking—this has been going on for years? I've tried flooding, distraction, and thought-stopping. Nothing stops the pain.

The Winston Churchill quote was a good reminder for me on my toughest days, "When you’re going through Hell, keep going."

The only way I got through the pain was to feel it, and process it.

The only way I got through the anger was to feel it, and process it.

I’m an over-thinker who grew up with the idea that if I buried my feelings long enough, they would go away.

Now, if I get a trigger (I’m over 9-years since discovery), I tackle it on the spot.

The brain always has a reason for intrusive thoughts, usually for us, it is the PTSD aspect of it; your mind is trying to find a path where the pain doesn’t happen and it goes in circles thousands of times looking for a way where this doesn’t hurt.

Once I understood my brain was only trying to help, it answered my question, why is this horrible thought stuck there? I reminded myself my brain is trying to protect me, I process that the horror show is in the past and then I focus on the good things that are happening around me today.

If I don’t have good things happening around me today, I find something to change the channel in my head. I exercise, go for a walk, go for a swim, watch a movie I love or wanted to see, watch a comedy show, listen to great music, read a good book, etc. — anything to call a time out on circular thinking.

Feel the pain, be glad your brain is trying to protect you and then accept the fact it is the past, it ain’t happening in the now.

Anger was good for me. It still helps me to this day.

I never wake up with the idea that I am glad I went through this Hell to be stronger.

I wake up each day and HATE what happened to me. I find it healthy to never embrace the A. I hate it, I always, always will.

I find that I fully accept that it happened and I don’t have to be glad about it.

That’s my process.

I love my life today, I love the healing I have done, I love the relationship I have helped to rebuild.

After a while, when you get some more pain processed, you have a chance to eventually let the past…be the past.

Oldwounds. Thanks for sharing your words of wisdom. My problem is that after 25 years, I’m having difficulty coping with reality—because I don’t know what reality is. Every time my wife talks about her infidelity, the story changes. Without honesty and full transparency, I feel like her changing stories are a continued betrayal.

I want to feel and accept. Instead, all I feel is ongoing betrayal, sadness, and frustration. Hoping our new therapy will help to unearth reality.

Here is the thing about "the truth". We can only put so much faith in the "truth" that we get from the cheater.

Most of us were not there (at the time the cheating occurred if in person) and thus, it’s hard to know if we are getting the full story with all the details or a watered down version.

But here’s what we do know as betrayed spouses. We know that the trickle truth will cause more damage than the cheaters know.

We know that our investigative skills will most likely get us enough info or details to know what happened (meaning EA or PA or NSA sex etc.).

I may be cut from a different cloth but when I realized that the "truth" part of the reconciliation process was causing more damage to me, I had to stop and re-evaluate what was I looking for?

I felt my H told me the truth about the affair (from what I got from the OW and him I’m pretty sure I know all I need to know). But it’s one of those things that made me pause and ask myself - how much longer am I going to let this impact me and cause me to have a bad day?

At the 3 year mark I decided I deserved better and u just cannot let this affair take over my life.

I think as betrayed we have a choice. If we choose to attempt R then we are constantly evaluating that decision. If we choose to D then we’ve decided R isn’t going to work or what occurred was just not something we can live with.

We have a choice. Our choice should be to live our best life despite the affair and trauma we have endured. If we cannot accept the past and overcome it, perhaps D is the only solution that can lead to peace of mind.

As I noted before, usually the BS story changes out of fear — the narrative is being shaped to hurt as less as is possible.

Human memory, as we know, is not a reliable narrator either.

I imagine I have about 95 percent of the story, plus or minus.

I’ll never have all the story.

I know enough to understand the reality of her choices and the damage done.

You know your reality, your wife made some horrible choices, and the M isn’t what you hoped it would be.

Now what?

That was the key for me.

What detail do you hope to get from her? Or more specifically, what does she need to do to show she isn’t holding more of the truth inside?

LT,

Have You confronted the OM or interviewed him, offered an olive branch for the truth

While I understand you love your WW and that's a standup thing to do, do you feel your WW loves you the same.

The changing stories makes ya feel a WW is hiding something larger and you can't help but think those things.

I'm not healthy enough to confront him.

Is knowing the truth from my wife something I should just give up on? I'm so broken, I haven't left this chair all day. She's on the beach doing yoga, now.

My psychiatrist said to me that I'm just unwilling to accept that I made the mistake of staying with her. Back to sleep to escape this painful day.

Thank you for listening.

Low Tide, respectfully, I think you may have things backward. You seem to think, from my interpretation, that YOU have a problem accepting reality but the problem is that your wife has a problem PRESENTING reality. You don't have the problem. If you're living with someone who lied to you for years about an affair that took place for years, and you may not know the full truth of the rest of the years, either.....why do YOU have the problem? The problem is HER. The problem is that she lied to you for years, lied to you about REALITY, and now she can't remember her lies so she tells you other lies. She probably just wants you to stop asking about it and whatever else she might have been doing throughout your marriage. Someone who's been unfaithful starting BEFORE YOUR WEDDING is not someone inherently you can trust. Certainly not on this topic. That is not a trustworthy person, inherently. So of course, you have problems with the reality she presents because she's a liar. I'm sorry I don't have much patience with people who have cheated even before they got married and for years afterwards. And you really don't know what else has happened either because....why should you believe her about anything?

YOU are not the problem. YOU don't have the problem. SHE is the problem. Do you want to continue to live with the problem? You could try the polygraphs, it might help and it might make you feel you have more contact with the reality...but there are people who can fake out polygraphs too, especially if THEY are not sure what really happened or she remembers it differently. At this point, I think my feeling, if this were me, is that I would have to accept that this is what she has told me, it's probably the best or only thing I'm going to get, do I want to be with this person accepting that her version of "reality" maybe very different from mine and other people's. I don't give people a pass just because it's a long relationship. If you find out you're married to a Bernie Madoff for 50 years, it doesn't change that he's Bernie Madoff. Does someone want to stay married to Bernie Madoff? In many ways he might have been a great guy, but he was a deceiver, and how much could you ever trust him? His version of reality would always be questionable.

So don't doubt yourself, don't think this is YOUR problem, your problem is not about reality, it's about whether you want to continue being married to this person, even at this point, who has given you so many DOUBTS about reality, literally from the start of your marriage. And if you think the pluses outweigh the minuses, I'd just forget about this whole issue because I think what you have is what you're gonna get. She may not even remember much of it at this point just because of the sheer passage of time. And she probably just wants you to stop talking about it. Which is also your decision. So....the question is.....is this relationship acceptable to you? Because at this point, I think it is what it is. You wouldn't be wanting the answers to these questions over and over if you really accepted what the bottom line is....you're still trying to figure out, IMO, how to make this forgivable and acceptable - and to me it's not. But it might be to you, you just can't keep going over the same ground repeatedly...I think you either accept that the pluses outweigh the minuses and move on from this topic, or perhaps you really should think about whether your mental and emotional health might be better off if you were not married to this person. You might consider, if you haven't already, a trial separation to clarify your own feelings about the marriage. You CAN have a relationship without being married also. There are a number of possible outcomes here but I think going over the same ground repeatedly is not going to get you anywhere. She lied to you for years and here you are.

My psychiatrist said to me that I'm just unwilling to accept that I made the mistake of staying with her. Back to sleep to escape this painful day.

I’m no psychiatrist, nor do I play one on TV — I’ve got three family members who are, but they weren’t a lot of help with the unique pain of infidelity.

It does seem like you’re fighting a two front war, one may be, as your mental health professional suggests — regret — and the other is you need more truth to heal properly.

I found out years after the fact, a belated confession.

So, I completely understand the need to put reality back together in a way you understand it.

In the pursuit of more information from your wife, what is missing? Timeline? Her feelings toward AP? What truth do you think is missing and what is your wife’s answer when you ask?

If your other battle is regret, well, you can attack that too, depending on what you want.

Good afternoon, OldWounds.

I found your empathic, compassionate, warm, and engaging comment to be what I need. Thank you.

Still, 25 years after my discovery of her infidelity, I hear a different story every time she speaks about it. What do I want to know...?

Why did she do what she did?
What was missing in our relationship?
What did he provide that I did not?
Did she only see him at work and in his apartment?
Is it true that he never took her out anywhere?
Did they have sex in our bedroom?
Why did she marry me only days or weeks after she began her sexual relationship with him—which continued for years?
When did it begin?
When did it end?
Did she have an abortion with his child? We had great difficulty having our first, whom I still wonder if is his daughter.
Why did she allow him to cum in her mouth, while I was directed to use a washcloth? I apologize for the potentially triggering detail.
Where did she go with him?
Where was she intimate with him?
Were there other men beyond him—and the "creep" I JUST learned about who was texting her for the last 6 years that she didn't feel was necessary to share with me?

Sadly, I could go on and on, as I have never heard the same answer twice.

I love my wife, have been only with her since she was 15 and I was 17 and yearn to be with no one but her. But I need to know the truth and learn to accept it if I am going to heal.

Until the betrayed knows reality—the betrayal continues.

Thank you for being there, my friend.

I'm so broken and depressed.

If your wife has shown some care and empathy for how you’re feeling, I would print out your latest message here and hand it to her.

It certainly describes what circular thoughts you are having, the questions that haunt you and how you feel.

Based strictly on 10-years of reading stories here and helping people, one set of questions I can answer for you.

Her A had nothing to do with you or anything that was missing from the M.

All infidelity starts with a person struggling with their own ego and identity. Or projecting their ego or something similar for the narcissistic WS.

All relationships struggle, not everyone chooses to cheat.

There was nothing magical about her AP, it was validation.

If she was recently getting texts from someone else, then, she still has a validation issue.

Anyone who needs continued attention/validation from strangers is a threat to the M.

As to the where and when stuff, I always assumed the worst for about the days my wife couldn’t remember. It was easier for me that way.

DNA test for your child if you’re not sure — or basic blood type possibilities first if need be.

Is your wife simply hoping you move on from this or how has she helped you at all so far?

LT,

Does the OM still live nearby?

Does your WW still have mutual friends with OM?

Does your WW still have friends or family who knew about the affair and never told you or supported it?

Any of the above can keep you triggered for years.

I lived for decades with the little thought in my mind that pulling into my driveway unknown to me some OM had stolen my kids and my life

Did I read right that Your WW was in a texting relationship for 6 years recently with a CREEP