SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi! BW here.

FULL-ON D-Day was just over a month ago, got-the-ball-rolling D-Day was almost 2 months ago. So... it's early for me. I'm trying not too hard to lean into reconciliation, still trying to keep a fully-open mind.

That said, WH's big issue-- a common one-- is a desperate need for validation and a lack of boundaries.

His "real" affairs were:

1) In the 90s, he confessed days after, we half-a-- reconciled (well, *I* put in a lot of work, he never was all-in... obviously)

2) An EA/OA in 2004-2005, I discovered in October, 2 months ago -- he was still in touch with her through this year (2022), though "as a friend"-- mostly ignoring her attempts to reignite through the years.

3) A different PA in 2004-2005, he confessed in November, a month ago-- he was periodically in touch "as a friend"

(I say "as a friend" not because he was making explicit or romantic overtures-- from his end they were almost exclusively genuinely "friend"-level-- but because he was a delusional idiot with no boundaries-- there's an even deeper reason for this I won't get into now. Oh, what the heck-- along with #3, he finally confessed something I'd never REALLY suspected-- he'd lied about how he'd lost his virginity, well before we were dating. In fact, he lost his virginity to a married woman-- one he'd stayed "friends" with more or less to present day, and who was in our wedding-- SO YOU SEE THE ISSUE.)

However, at the time I discovered #2 a couple of months ago, I also discovered hundreds of absolutely ridiculously boundary-stomping, barely-toeing-the-A-line, sexually-explicit ("as a joke"-- but never clearly joking) group messages (and some private) with a mostly-female group of "friends" from 2009-2010.

Shortly thereafter, I did some more digging and found only mildy-to-moderately less egregious types of text-based boundary stomping, sexual/romantic winky/jokey/not really conversations with several of his female friends-- yes, he has many female friends. These occurred variously between 2010 and ~present (2022) in some cases. Sigh. Not with all of his friends, and we're exploring why/why not. (Mostly those women have better boundaries! He's only as strong as the other person's boundaries.)

In any event, most of these conversations and relationships lost most or all of their innuendo over time, especially after 2018. Though he was still living many lies with me, burying his past, gaslighting me, not fully-empathizing with me... he did do some important-- but non-therapy, so not sufficient!-- work in his personal life starting around 2018. I do think that lessened his desperate need for validation somewhat.

He started IC a couple of months ago, just before I discovered #2 and all of this egregious "inappropriate" behavior. Even before the discoveries and confessions, I was pushing on old unresolved issues-- like A #1, for example. So the IC he's seeing-- that's great.

However.

I find I cannot deal with knowing how bad, bad, bad his boundaries are. It pains me, because in most... all? cases, these women have been kind to me, and I liked them and they liked me!!! And I had encouraged him to form more friendships with women.... ugh, I didn't know he was like this because I overempathize with him and I am not like this with my male friends!

But... I don't want to compromise myself, especially not right now. I'm tired of doubting my instincts and subjugating my needs to his-- OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING HE GASLIT ME INTO DOING FOR MORE THAN 25 YEARS AHEM.

I don't LIKE this, but I think I need to set boundaries around his communication with, at the very least, some of these women. Two of them he f---ed up with right after the final (??) D-Day last month. He realized how creepy he'd been and decided to apologize to them via text (and he did tell them he had cheated on me "16-17 years ago" and we were separated). Of course that only garnered him "Oh, I still love you, I never thought anything of it, I hope you two stay together, I just love JellyPineappleFlavor" (but they are being sincere). Both I and our MC kinda reamed him out, so he "got" it... maybe mostly.

But I'm like... what? Trying to figure out what feels safest for me right now. Even if it's not forever. I think there are a handful of women he really just needs to be NC with, frankly. Bare minimum, just to start. It's too triggering for me. Maybe that should be my litmus test? How triggering it would be to know he chatted with them?

So does he just...

Stop contacting them?
Block them?
Not block them, but share any messages he gets from them and also not respond?
Tell them that he's going NC?
Also tell them why?
None of the above?

I can sit on these questions for myself, but I guess any additional clarity anyone can provide, especially if they've been in the same situation, would be dearly appreciated. Thanks so much.

IMHO anyone he's been inappropriate with needs to GO. Snip snip snipity snip. Block [no notice - just block]. Phone numbers - delete. Circle of friends - broken. Coworkers - get a new job ASAP. Those are "not just friends". In fact there is a book by that title. Both of you should read it. It quite enlightening.

If he finds that he's sad about this, you have a problem.
If he balks at this, you have a problem.
If he refuses to do this, you have a problem.
If he defends them in any way, you have a problem.
If he feels bad about doing this, you have a problem.

If he has a long list of these women - he needs a good IC and quickly.

He’s either all in or he’s not. All in on NO Contact with women of any kind. None. Zilch. Nada.

No friends.

No acquaintances.

No Work "buddies"

If he won’t do that, he’s not going to put the effort into the marriage.

My husband always had lots of female friends too. Many of which I always felt he was too chumy with and had loose boundaries with. I never wanted to appear like the jealous wife and I THOUGHT he would be faithful. After dday I said no more. It stops today. No more female friends ever again if he wants to be married to me. Basically they just fell off the face of the earth as he stopped putting himself in positions to have contact with them. One of them messaged him and asked him if everything was OK or if she had done something to make him mad. He immediately showed the message to me and told me to respond as I saw fit. I thought about it and decided no response was the best response. Now if we see her they don't speak or even act like they know each other.

You asked:
Stop contacting them? Yes

Block them? Depends, do they need to be? What extent was their friendship or relationship? Do you want them blocked?

Not block them, but share any messages he gets from them and also not respond? Yes that is what we did. But my H also deleted all social media which was the main form of contact.

Tell them that he's going NC?
Also tell them why? No to both, none of this is their business and he needs to end the "friendships" by just walking away. No explanations needed.

WH's big issue-- a common one-- is a desperate need for validation and a lack of boundaries.

With such an ongoing and strong need for validation from other women, it's critical that you set an expectation that he will have no female friends. He doesn't text, email, or communicate in any way online with a female friend. He doesn't meet with them in person to grab lunch or a drink, etc. He doesn't share his personal life stories with female coworkers or solicit their stories.

This is an expectation that you express to him.

I think I need to set boundaries around his communication with, at the very least, some of these women

.
A boundary is something that we set for ourselves--something that we have control over. You can express to him your expectations, but your boundary is: What are you going to do if he breaches these expectations again?

You can decide whether or not to express your plans to him about this. If you do let him know your plans, only share what you are absolutely ready to do if he doesn't improve his own boundaries with women. False threats will only make the situation more miserable for you.

You setting an expectation for him is a bandage to stem a gaping wound. It's probably needed, but isn't the ultimate fix.

The ultimate fix is for him to do the work to understand and want to change his need for validation from other women.

If you are directing his work, it isn't really his work. (Figured this important gem out myself the hard way.) If it isn't his own work, he isn't going to change. If he doesn't really change, he isn't a safe partner who can be trusted in a committed relationship.

Thank you all.

He is in IC, for about 2 months now, weekly-- I think that was in my original post.

He is very clearly (from our conversations, and things he's volunteered, and changes I've already seen) working hard at this:

The ultimate fix is for him to do the work to understand and want to change his need for validation from other women.

The issue is he's so unaccustomed to having boundaries with women-- all boundaries. He doesn't seem to be doing anything obviously sexually inappropriate now-- and as I mentioned, that's lessened significantly since 2018 anyway. But at the same time, he just mentioned yesterday that one of them reached out a couple of weeks ago, and then again last week-- but he only mentioned this when I asked. Now, I hadn't asked for any particular action from him around this, yet. I don't think he was hiding it... he said he wasn't sure how to respond to her. But my point is that he is not going to spontaneously set up ideal boundaries-- like thinking to volunteer this information! He is still fuzzy on a lot of what's normal and healthy and what is not in general (again, see how he lost his virginity).

He is working hard on removing his empathy block for me, and I see huge progress in a short time, indicative that it's a block but not a lack of empathy. But it's not happening all at once, overnight. And he knows I've been a bit conflicted about these women whom I considered almost-friends of mine (I just didn't know the extent of his inappropriateness!) He can be kind of passive and just wait to take cues from other people (obviously!)-- including me.

I very much understand that my boundaries are for me and they are the opposite of attempting to control him, which never works. I meant to say that I need boundaries around this in the sense that I want to say "I need X to happen/not happen, and if that need is not met, I will Y."

I kind of agree with this, Chaos:

If he finds that he's sad about this, you have a problem.

If he balks at this, you have a problem.

If he refuses to do this, you have a problem.

If he defends them in any way, you have a problem.

If he feels bad about doing this, you have a problem.

Except I think he's entitled to feeling sad/bad... in a general way, but mostly about realizing he's f-cked up these friendships/potential friendships by his own actions. And most of the ones I'm talking about woulda/coulda/sorta were/mostly were friendships with occasional over-the-line behavior from him (not always reciprocated by them). But losing them is a consequence of his own actions. I don't think he'll balk, refuse, or defend, though.

I'm not sure how I feel about "absolutely zero female friends." In fact, I do know how I feel about one of them in particular-- our (excellent) MC and I both suggested and approved of his reaching out to one of his childhood friends for support-- of whose I have read many years of texts, emails and messages -- nothing inappropriate-- and with whom I am close. On our MC's advice, I stayed nearby, listening as he told her EVERYTHING and I mean ALL OF IT (friend didn't know I was listening at first, which also helped me get a read on her and their relationship). And she was great, this friend. Held him 100% accountable and was still there for him. Said things spontaneously like, "You have to heal JellyPineappleFlavor if it's the last thing you f___ing do."

That said, I think it makes sense for him to not reach out to certain others, and that he should share any messages from them as soon as he gets them, and not respond... in fact it might be easier to have a "white list" of women I am fine w/him communicating with, though I might like to see those texts and so on as well. I don't think he has to block any of the women I'm talking about now-- good point. He's the one who initiated any inappropriateness and is usually the one to reach out to them, but not always.

He already blocked his #2 AP when I discovered/asked in October, then before he told me about #3, he preemptively blocked her everywhere as well (they hadn't communicated at all in probably 8 years). And since he told me about the married woman/friend he lost his virginity to (before our relationship) at the same time as he told me about #3, he blocked THAT woman as well without my having to ask*.

I also agree he needs to deactivate FB, which we'd discussed, but I hadn't landed on. As for what to tell them if pressed, he could always say something I saw recommended here-- "I really need to focus on my marriage right now." Hm...

*That's a bit complicated since she's so unstable now... I asked him to temporarily unblock her out of genuine concern for our safety (may be overblown, but it's not unfounded)... not sure what to do there. She will message him or text him here and there every few months, which hasn't happened since last month. She has an arrest record and a drug problem now... anyway... at the very least he can not respond and show me her messages. He hasn't been inappropriate with her over many years of messages I saw-- found on my own-- but she still comes onto him "subtly" from time-to-time.

[This message edited by JellyPineappleFlavor at 4:05 AM, Thursday, December 15th]

It’s not realistic for you to police his interactions with other women or set up "rules" for him. He needs to police himself and decide what he’s willing to do to save your marriage.

The only person you can control is yourself. Decide what you’re willing or not willing to tolerate and act accordingly.