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It means he wants you to leave so you are twice the "bad guy". I disagree with most of the things on this thread and I'm a betrayed spouse. It's been 4 years and you have given him full control and dismissing your own needs as "needy". You have lost yourself in an attempt to repair the marriage. At this point the question goes from what have you done to change to what has he done to heal?

He sounds abusive in the way he responds to you and out of curiosity what were the reasons you turned to another man? I am not one to blame each other but was there something lacking in the marriage that led to it and if so how has that been rectified?

As my therapist said to me and my ws "You will go through the grief cycle including anger denial, sadness etc but it does not give you a right to beat your spouse over the head with it forever" and its true. There will always be some anger and rude words spoken but there are consequences for those words and right now I'm willing to bet your self esteem is on the floor. He does not sound committed to reconciliation but instead eternal punishment. There comes a point in healing where you have to make the choice to trust the bs and sit on the uncertainty of never knowing whether what told you is true or not and your husband is choosing not to.

It's not "how you want to come across." Again..it sounds like you're just going through a checklist,putting on an act.

The lie wasn't a "slip up." That's minimizing.

You did something you knew would upset him,and when caught,you lied.

You are not the victim, and he's not the monster. You cheated. You lied until you knew you were caught. You JUST lied to him again,and didn't tell the truth until you knew he already knew. He doesn't believe there wasn't any sex,because he can't prove there was,and you have shown that you will lie until confronted with evidence. Of course he doesn't believe you. He cant,because you aren't truthful. This is not his fault.

He sounds like he's done. It sounds like he gave you years to become remorseful (recent lying proves you are not), and he's tired of it all. You essentially ended the marriage with the affair. It sounds like he wants you to leave,and file for divorce. He doesn't care about you anymore. You both have proven you don't care about the other. Let it go.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:14 PM, Friday, November 25th]

No one here can tell you what is going on in your husband’s head. I can offer some of my experience with similar issues. Take it with a grain of salt.

While I had a lying slip up since this post, I realize that I have a lot to work on still. I have not changed enough and I'm inconsistent.

Lies are not acceptable. Not even small lies. It’s simple. Lies are huge triggers that piss me off. If I’m pissed, I’m not willing to cooperate. If I catch him in a lie, and he starts to "explain" himself, the best he can hope for is that I’ll tell him to go to hell. Lies, hiding, omitting – all of that has to stop, no matter how trivial it is. Example: You’re on a coffee break with your female co-workers and a new male co-worker joins you. You barely speak to the guy, there’s nothing to tell, it will only trigger your husband, so you think it’s better not to mention it at all. Well, think again. Example 2 (your own from Wayward Side): your husband asks you about porn, and you directly lie about it. FFS, don’t do that. Being 100% honest and open is a huge thing, no matter how insignificant the truth is, no matter how shameful the truth is, no matter anything. It will help to rebuild trust, but it will also help him to be more cooperative, as he won’t be pissed at you for yet another lie.

Consistency is also important. You say you’re inconsistent – that means you consistently fail to demonstrate the change. No wonder he is constantly pissed at you. You want him to cooperate? Well, stop pissing him off. However, this doesn’t mean you should walk on eggshells around him – that will only push you to hide things more. In your Wayward Side thread, you mentioned your lies are based on shame – if he knows the true you, he probably won’t like you. This tells me that not only he doesn’t trust you, but you don’t trust him. Trust goes both ways – if you want him to trust you, start to trust him. Think about it this way: if you can’t be honest with your husband, why would you even want to be with him? If he won’t like the true you, why waste time on him? Take a leap of fate, show him the true you, you might be surprised. It is a risk, but it’s a risk worth taking.

I've contacted a polygraph test. My husband isn't supportive of the test. So I'm not sure if it's worth taking.

I did not want to do a polygraph test. In my case it wouldn’t help much, as my questions are not really suitable for such a test. And I know it’s not 100% reliable. However, the biggest deal for me was embarrassment. I just felt embarrassed by the whole idea of us arranging that, going there, telling someone why we are there, saying my questions, possibly having our names somewhere on record, anything. I know it’s silly, I know they guarantee privacy, but still. I just saw that as humiliating, and the betrayal humiliated me enough. If there was a way to do it for real at home, just the two of us, I’d do it.

I offered for him or us to contact the AP for messages or to question on my actions. He told me to go fuck myself. That he wouldn't do my job. That it doesn't matter what he would say. That I'm too late.

He’s right. APs lie. For all he knows, you maybe have a deal with the AP on what to tell. So, it wouldn’t make a difference if the AP just confirms what you are saying, and it would only bring more embarrassment if you were to contact him now.

So I asked him where do we go from here

I didn’t like when my husband asked the same. It was telling me he thinks we have discussed the problem enough, that everything is clear, and now we need to decide. Correction, I need to decide. I didn’t want to decide anything. Nothing was clear to me. I needed more time, I needed more quality discussions, I needed more demonstrations of change, I needed more consistency, and so on. It’s the same as with lies – that question pisses me off, when I’m pissed I’m less willing to cooperate. Next time when he tells you he’s over it, he doesn’t like you and so, try being proactive instead of asking him to decide on an action. If he tells you to go away, don’t comply. Tell him you will not go away, you are not over it, you like him, you want your marriage to succeed, you will fight for it, and you will do whatever it takes. Then actually do that, consistently! He might resist, he might tell you you’re selfish and thinking only about what you want. Sometimes this was exactly what I needed to calm down – to see that he really, selfishly wants me and our marriage.

Why can't we talk about what the next step is for us?

Because this a step you take together. You might be ready to take the next step, he isn’t.

Why can't he just tell me what he wants?

Because sometimes we don’t know what we exactly want. Sometimes we want our WSs to read our minds. Sometimes we do tell what we want, but the WS is not hearing us / not taking us seriously. Sometimes we are too proud to admit what we want. Sometimes we want WS to be proactive and take the wheel, and we will tag along.

If your significant other says they don't want you all the time but then doesn't do anything about it, what does that mean?

I’d say this means they are still very much hurt by the betrayal, they did not process it properly, there might be unanswered questions, lack of clarity, and so on. My WS minimized and lied about the extent of the betrayal for 5 years post DDay. I was very much like your husband. OK, I don't think I was that harsh, but we did go through similar rollercoaster, good times, bad times, harsh words, lack of consistency. I knew I don't have the truth, I was often angry. Angry = non-cooperative.

Let me ask you something – you say you try to talk to him. How much of that is you actually talking, and how much is you asking him questions or answering his questions? You need to be proactive in talking – anticipate questions and answer them before they’re asked, open up to him, volunteer information (about you in general, not just about the betrayal). Don’t wait for him to ask you a question, don’t ask him "what do you want to talk about". Just start talking.

It really is a shame you lied again, this seemed to be your one chance to maybe be on the road to repair but lying in any capacity just added a huge road block that may be permanent.

I think your husband is checked out and nothing you can do will fix it. He might not be actively trying to leave or divorce you because it is admitting to himself and everyone defeat.

I stayed with my exWH only so I didn't have to admit I "lost" in the marriage "game." So I stayed, even though I did not like him or love him, until I was physically abused enough times and he took every cent we had.

I'm really sad to hear you lied and read your other thread about what you lied about, it does trigger me and makes me feel sad. My current WH lied about porn too and it was what led me to finding out about other things.

Word of advice for your future self, stop lying and take the shame that may come with the truth rather than lie and feel shame anyway for not only the action but the lie.

He very well might be simply testing you. I would get the poly done, then hand him a hard copy snd send an emailed copy. He very well might rip up the hard copy in front of you, but on his own read the emailed copy. Pride is playing a role here most likely.

Well, you shouldn't have lied. You already know that, so I'm not going to beat you over the head with it. Lies are the biggest mistake you can make in R. Better to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. What's he going to do?.. tell you to go fuck yourself? tell you to drive yourself into a tree or whatever the last heinous insult it was he had for you? You're still here, aren't you? He talks to you like you're a dog and somehow you haven't just shriveled up and disappeared. You've survived this guy's verbal assault for three years now and you already know he's not going to believe anything you say, so why bother to lie?

Guess my "mashed potato brain" doesn't get it. Maybe I'm in denial that is repairable. He doesn't want me or like me. So where does that leave us? Why can't we talk about what the next step is for us? Why does he get to tell me to go away and he return to his phone? Why can't he just tell me what he wants?

Why does he get to decide what your life is? Yeah, you fucked up. You had an emotional affair. That's cause enough to end one's marriage if that's the decision a BS makes. But he's not making any decisions, is he? He's just spewing out molten hate all over you and because you feel guilty, you think it's all you deserve. Here's the thing though.. you don't have to wait for him to tell you what HE wants. You can decide what YOU want, well, within the parameters of what's available anyway. A healthy marriage isn't in the offing. Your BS's abject REFUSAL to engage in R or to make any kind of investment in healing is testament to that.

I do think getting the poly is going to benefit your peace of mind. It doesn't matter if he's on board for it or not. Get it done and once you've passed it, please start standing up for yourself. Abuse is NOT a necessary component of R. It's not even in the ballpark of healthy in R. Spend some time in consideration of what you're getting out of tolerating your WS's bad behavior. There's always a payoff. Sometimes we have to dig to find out what it is.

It's not "how you want to come across." Again..it sounds like you're just going through a checklist,putting on an act.

The lie wasn't a "slip up." That's minimizing.

You did something you knew would upset him,and when caught,you lied.

You are not the victim, and he's not the monster. You cheated. You lied until you knew you were caught. You JUST lied to him again,and didn't tell the truth until you knew he already knew. He doesn't believe there wasn't any sex,because he can't prove there was,and you have shown that you will lie until confronted with evidence. Of course he doesn't believe you. He cant,because you aren't truthful. This is not his fault.

I know that I am not putting on an act. It was a slip up to me in the since that I have not been lying to him anymore. I am not the victim. I know that he is the victim. I am the monster in this situation. He didn't ask to be lied to.
I need to get over myself. My lack of self confidence shows when I can't just just show my true self by not trying to hide it. I'm working on this in therapy.

But overall, yes, I'm inconsistent with my changes. Defensiveness, respecting his boundaries, talking vs not talking, and most recently honesty, action vs inaction, proactiveness vs reactiveness, caring vs not caring.

Example: After him telling me he's done last night. He doesn't talk to me at all. I try to talk to him, he puts AirPods in. Tells me I'm being disrespectful. He goes to bed in our bed. This morning he tells me I need to leave the room. He doesn't want me in his presence. So I say no. I say I am not done fighting for this marriage. He says that I'm a loser and being a dumbfuck. Even though I don't want to, I leave as requested.

I feel like I have been walking on egg shells at least 6 years. Even before the affair. Now it's just amplified.

Let me ask you something – you say you try to talk to him. How much of that is you actually talking, and how much is you asking him questions or answering his questions

I have tried to talk to him weekly, essentially every Sunday, I will bring up something regarding the cheating whether its something I've learned in therapy, something I want to dive deeper into, something that I've lied about that has bothered us... It always ends the same. I get about 4-5 sentences out. I'm usually interrupted. He tells me what he thinks- No, its this, no you're just that, no you did this. Then he will tell me to fuck off or it's the end of discussion. The rest of the day and possibly the next few days I get the silent treatment.

So I have tried to be proactive. I have tried to put myself out there. I have tried to get a real discussion on this topic many many times. I want to sit down and have a back and forth conversation. I want this more than anything but If I do not stop talking when he says to it will escalate to him getting very angry. This is when I get more of the names, the comments, the threats of leaving. Sometimes he will get in my face to yell at me. Sometimes it gets scary. Its when it gets like this that I more inconsistent, that I get defensive, that I tell him to leave, that I tell him I don't care anymore. I always apologize and never expect an apology from him.

If he tells you to go away, don’t comply. Tell him you will not go away, you are not over it, you like him, you want your marriage to succeed, you will fight for it, and you will do whatever it takes. Then actually do that, consistently! He might resist, he might tell you you’re selfish and thinking only about what you want.

I don't think this will work for us. He will lock himself in a room to get away from me if I continue to try to talk to him. The thought of doing this makes me nervous and feel like Im going to push him away further.

One night, I kept trying to keep the conversation going. He got aggressive. I got defensive. He got even more aggressive. Then he didn't talk to me for 10 days, locked himself in the office and slept on the floor. I apologized for my disrespect and defensiveness. Now I just try to respect his needs and not be defensive.

But I am going to keep fighting for the good that we do share. The good parts of this marriage. This might be an abusive relationship. Maybe it's always been that way to some extent and now things are just blown up even worse. I do know that I love this man, even though some of my actions say otherwise. Until something changes, I will keep working on bettering myself and doing what I can to show that I care.

I feel like I have been walking on egg shells at least 6 years. Even before the affair. Now it's just amplified.
(…)
Sometimes it gets scary.

I think it's good you’ve decided to join SI. The more you write, the more info you share, the better advice you will get, as people will have a clearer picture of what is going on. After I read your latest post, I can honestly say – forget everything I wrote above. Talk to your therapist about this. No matter what you did, you don’t deserve living in fear. This is not just him being angry because of the betrayal. This is an abusive relationship. Please, take care of yourself.

Hannah47, I appreciate being called out though. There are many things that I still need to work on and change.

There is no excuse for me to lie anymore. It is counterproductive for trying to fix anything. It's counterproductive to a healthy relationship. I can't keep being a liar and expect anything to change. I'm disappointed with myself.

I lie out of shame and to avoid confrontation. This has to stop.

So how else do I prove I didn't have sex? (Lots of actions you did to prove you still have some virtue and loved him during the affair)
He has told me that he contacted my old coworkers at one point and they said I had oral sex (which 1000000000% did not happen).

(Someone says you lack empathy)
This is most certainly not how I want to come across. This is something to think about.

I lie out of shame and to avoid confrontation.

Ok, so lets go over what I think might help.
You keep trying to hold to this fact that you held a moral line. You want to state that you did not have physical sex and he needs to know and accept this. Anything less is not going to work for you because he needs to see this virtue you held onto. You cast all the other virtue aside, but this is where you draw the line.

Do you see how this looks?
You lied. You cheated. You covered it up and continue to lie.
Now you want him to have some faith and show he can trust you. Maybe you need to let that go. How about you absolutely let that go. You don't need him to see you as virtuous anymore. Just acknowledge you lied so he will never be able to trust you about the affair. He will get trickle truth and he will never know where it ends. So, just stop worrying about what he thinks happened and fix your relationship. Even if his understanding is wrong, you still were a bad wife during the affair. You are better now, so focus on your current contributions to the marriage.

You lost. He is a better spouse than you and you definitely messed up in the past. Why try to turn your F into a D-? It is still failing.
So lets walk through how my wife used to talk up until now where I think it all came out.

Then:
MeBH: "You went to the hotel with your friend and probably hooked up with 2 guys at once." (Me frantic and spinning.)
MyWW: "I never was with 2 guys at once. I wouldn't do that to you. I can't believe you think I would do that?" (Do you see how she would spin this into her disgust over my mind movie versus her now in the below set.)

Now:
MeBH: "I can't believe you never fully explained what happened to convince you to go back to the hotel with those guys and have an orgy." (This was me when I was mad and drunk. I apologized later and I am working on some more forgiveness exercises lately.)
MyWW: "I was drunk and made lots of bad choices. I am glad you are still here."
MeBH: "Well how can I trust you now."
MyWW: "You can't. You can trust that I will fight to stay with you. I proved that. I can't guarantee anything else. I wish I could tell you it will never happen again, but that would be me making a promise I know I already broke."

She accepts she messed up and could mess up in the future. Our MC said it is like an alcoholic in AA. They need to acknowledge they rationalized their way into the situation once and need to acknowledge they could get there again. But they will ask to build the relationship on the things they did after the affair was discovered. They don't call out the BS for being paranoid. They don't try to fight with the BS to make the picture of the affair how they experienced it. They talk through how the BS's current thoughts about them make them sad because it means the BS still only sees the worst in the WS.
Fighting back that you are to be trusted when you have been proven to be lying is only going to blow up in your face. My wife proved on one occasion she was right about something I assumed happened. We eventually got proof it didn't happen with 1 guy I assumed she had slept with. Then she tried to use that to "prove" I could be wrong about my assumptions. It just made me madder because she then tried to use my mistake to push back and lessen her guilt. She was guilty, just on 2 counts, not 3, but she originally only confessed to 1 count and had to have the second dragged out of her.

So, whenever your husband starts to get down on himself and then lashes out at you about having sex with the AP, focus on the healing and less on getting his thoughts to be in line with what you want. He says, "I saw the D pic. You must have really enjoyed sex with him." You reply with, "I never should have hurt you. What can I do to show you I like you D and the other things you provide in this marriage?" See, you go around the direct correction, just state you feel bad about the pain you caused, then go right to trying to heal.

This is just my advice and what helped me. My wife took 2 years to learn that not fighting to correct my thoughts skill. Just an FYI.

@kccalifornia - you are posting in the reconciliation forum - so I guess that means you want to reconcile is that correct?

Because I have read this thread with dismay as some have tried to gin up a level of outrage at your husband - the victim here - and paint him as some sort of abusive monster.

I want to forewarn you that I have been on this forum for 4 years, and certain contributors have an axe to grind with betrayed men who may say some ugly words to the wives who have betrayed them, even going so far as to make it seem like that anger is somehow the equivalent of the mental abuse of being cheated on and lied to over days, months and years.

These same contributors, are pretty much never observed taking that same position with betrayed women who hurl verbal invective at their male cheaters and their female affair partners, and who sometimes even physically go after their husbands. Occasionally, they even offer encouragement and support for that behavior.

I am not naming names or citing examples, but please be aware. If you want the chance to reconcile with your husband, I don't think the road to reconciliation is to try to make him the villain. And I wonder what his version of this story would be?

Nasty words are ugly. But I totally get it when the person who swore to be there for you stabs you in the back. It destroys your heart. People lash out. Some who have tried to draw the equivalency between some curse words and cheating may have also been observed using nasty language to others right here on this forum. Caveat emptor.

For sure, after a point unbridled anger does harm both parties. If you cannot deal with his anger - that you are the originator of because of your actions that you committed with forethought - then it is probably best to pursue a way out than a way forward with him.

That is my 2 cents on the emotions that occur after cheating is discovered.

***

With regard to the rest of your questions:

How am I supposed to know if he won't tell me?

I am going to tell you EXACTLY what your husband wants:

- He wants a wife who doesn't have lies or plots floating behind her eyes while he looks upon her face with love and utter trust
- He wants a wife who didn't conspire to cheat on him with some shitbag.
- He wants a wife who did not make out with some guy, and then came back for a second round and had oral sex with him. (I know you said that didn't happen, but you also have deleted all evidence, trickle-truthed, continued lying and show behaviors that demonstrates that you don't understand/care about the depth of the hurt you have caused.)

But since you don't have a time-machine, none of that is possible.

***

After that, I am pretty sure he doesn't know what he wants. His whole world has been destroyed. He didn't plan for this. Meanwhile, while I have not read your entire story, it appears that since discovery, you have done everything possible - as most cheaters do - to cement the fact that you cannot be trusted.

What I mean by that is it appears, with the deletions, lies etc. you did everything to protect yourself rather than doing everything to heal him. And frankly, you continue to do so, with lies that have no function except to make the situation worse.

You know that your husband set you up for a test with the porn thing, and you failed it miserably, yes? I know you wrote that "immediately tried to own it", but that is bullshit. Because you only "tried to own it" after you were completely busted lying.

Every time you are caught lying you are reset back to D-Day. And guess what, that is also an anger reset for many people, until they get tired of being angry.

By the way, that is when you will know he is done, when he is no longer angry with you. So while the anger may be awful, it shows that he still has some investment in you.

***

Okay, what can you do?

There is no magic wand. If your husband is done, there is probably nothing you can do.

But meanwhile, what you can try to do is REFRAME YOUR POINT OF VIEW and REDEDICATE YOUR EFFORTS.

***

You just got busted in a lie. You wrote something to the effect of - "I can't believe I did this!"

REFRAME YOUR POINT OF VIEW: I can't believe I did this to him! Because while you are both harmed by your lie, it is yet another gut-punch for him that destroys your credibility because you are lying about inconsequential stupid shit. Now why would he believe you about the affair?

If you lie about little things, you will lie about big things. Stop lying

***

REFRAME YOUR POINT OF VIEW TO UNDERSTAND HIS POINT OF VIEW: Understand your story is implausible. I find your story very difficult to believe. Generally, after the first line is crossed (The kiss) regrouping and going back for another round does not result in less action, but more action.

By the way, somebody above tried to minimize your affair as "emotional" No, once you kissed this man it became physical. then you compounded it with the meetup and possibly other things that were not uncovered.

You say nothing else happened, it was awkward and petered out. Okay, while I won't say I believe you, that is what you are saying.

But the way you wrote it out in your second post in this thread - it was an exercise in classic minimizing. Kind of like: "It was only this and that, nothing else!"

I'll bet that is how you framed it to your husband as well. That is exactly how to make him blow his top.

Do that no more. There is no "it was only" for cheaters. Ask yourself if your husband did all of the things you did, then handled the discovery and aftermath the way you did, would you believe him?

Then admit to yourself that you wouldn't believe it.

***

REFRAME: Don't just write about being honest. Actually be honest. You wrote above: I’ve been completely honest with him. and -honesty

You were busted lying what, less than a week later after writing that post? Is that the first time you have been busted since D-Day?

You have no margin for error with lying. None. Every lie sets you back to the beginning.

I also don't believe you have been completely honest about the affair. I would bet anything that you have left out plenty about your affair. Stuff that you don't think is important. An affair is not just "the highlights" as you described in your posts above.

He needs the 100% picture. You might find it humiliating and embarrassing to explain. Did you tell him how you met this man? What tickled your fancy about him, what inspired you to move forward with the initial inappropriateness? Did you walk him through your memories of all of your texts with the scumbag you brought into your marriage? The things you wrote? Did you tell him about flirty conversations, whatever you did that led up to the penultimate acts of betrayal?

Did you tell him what it was about this man that made you cross these lines?

Did you make your husband learn everything himself? What does he know about your transgressions that he did not find out for himself?

What have you done to truly mitigate that damage? You should: GATHER EVERYTHING! TRY LIKE THE DEVIL TO RECOVER EVERTYHING! MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH!

Act as if your marriage depends on it.

***

Finally, I think this has been laid out to you in a couple of ways in different threads. You have to change yourself, for yourself. Everything you have written seems to be positioned about how you can change his mind, but not for his ultimate benefit, but for yours.

You are focused on the outcome. His outcome, for your benefit.

You need to change yourself, not to save the marriage you wrecked, but because being the type of person who cheats on their husband, lies, and then goes into damage-control to save their own ass is not the type of person anyone should want to be.

I know it seems harsh, but I really do feel that all of this has been about trying to affect him in such a way that you don't suffer the righteous consequences of cheating: Divorce.

That is the wrong approach. You cannot control him, just as he cannot control you. If he is done, he is done - even if he hasn't admitted it yet.

But what about you? Do you want to be the person who makes hollow vows? Do you want to be the person who betrays the person closest to them, then compounds the damage?

The only way forward, is to change your personal ethics. Be scrupulously honest, even when the consequences are rough. Be scrupulously decent and trustworthy, even when no-one is looking.

When your husband asks you a question, tell the truth. The complete truth.

Come clean. Truly clean. Let the chips fall where they may. Because in the end, even more than you want to live with your husband, you have to live with yourself.

And maybe, just maybe, your marriage will survive.

You have posted what your M is like post-A, but what was your M life like pre-A?

Did your A amplify the behaviours, or did the behaviours manifest themselves after your A?

I applaud you for trying to initiate conversations. My H very very rarely did that.

I think you have really tried hard to make amends. But maybe some marriages or relationships just cannot survive an affair.

Maybe yours is one of them. 😢

My wife and I are just going into year 7 of R together. We are in a much better place now, but it hasn't always been that way. For the first few years after Dday, my reason for existence was based around trying to fix what I had broken, to get my wife back, to help fix my kids from the damage done, and to "get back to normal" as much as possible. The thing was, I didn't understand at the time that those things were still "all about me". I saw them as "natural and obvious goals", just as natural and expected as opening an umbrella when it starts to rain. That point of view got me "stuck" in a state of selfishness and shame that lasted for several years, despite my continuous therapy and self-work.

If my daughter had come to me and told me that her long her term boyfriend had cheated on her the way I cheated on my wife, I'd tell her to dump his ass on the spot, forget he ever existed and go find someone who truly loves and respects her the way she deserves to. I'd say that, because I love my daughter, and the only personal stake I have in any relationship of hers is that I want her to have what is best for her, what makes her the happiest and fulfilled, and what brings her the least amount of pain and sorrow. What would make ME happy is not even a consideration. And yet... when it came to what I wanted in regard to my wife, I was trying to make the exact opposite happen. I was trying to get her to stay with her cheater. I was suggesting a path that would bring her the most pain and sorrow and remove the most joy and love from her life. If I truly loved my wife so much, if what I was doing was truly in "her best interests", then how could I possibly want those things for her? My brain short-circuited on this quite a bit, because what I wanted most in this world, was the opposite of what love was. I was hurting her, not helping her.

While all this was going on, my wife's life was hell. She wasn't verbally abusive to me at all, unlike your husband. However, she too was "done". In fact, she later told me that if not for our daughter, she would have left day one. But she wanted to try and keep things "as normal as possible" until our daughter graduated high school, then end things soon afterward. There was a long period where her disgust for me was palpable. She would look at me with an expression of pure disgust and hate, like I was made of slime and shit. Every time I looked in her direction, I did so with the intention of trying to gauge her mood, and this irritated her even more. I didn't realize at the time how "sad puppy looking for approval" I looked at the time, but being that way only made her feel more like shit, and continued to make it all about me. She was the one cheated on, and now, she felt like "the bad guy" for not giving me back what I wanted. I had been like a spoiled child who didn't consider her at all during the affair, and now I was still the same, looking for her approval when I had done nothing to change, and given her no reason feel otherwise.

At some point, around year 4, the reality of that came crashing down on me. I don't know why or what made the difference. I think I just got tired of fighting, tired of seeing her being so hurt and angry every day, tired of feeling like the thorn in a festering wound, tired of watching everything I touched turn to shit. I felt like a lit match in a gasoline factory, trying to keep everyone safe and yet I was the danger at hand. Here I was, trying to learn how to love myself, and yet, I never hated myself more in my life. I started to realize that nothing I was doing was working, or helping, or accomplishing anything other than creating enduring pain and sadness. As much as I wanted things to be better, I realized that wasn't possible. Moreover, I realized that I was the reason for that. My wife wasn't able to "move on and be happy" because I was still a constant source of pain.

As I continued to think about it, I realized that my life sucked. I wasn't happy. I wasn't going to be happy. My wife wasn't happy and wasn't going to be happy with me, ever. And my kids were stuck with parents who clearly were not happy. Eventually, it occurred to me that if I were to leave, separate, and go live on my own, while it would "fix" nothing, it could possibly at least remove the thorn, and allow the wound to heal. I was terrified of course. It wasn't I wanted, at all, and all I could imagine was living alone until the day I died. I assumed my kids would want nothing to do with me, nor my wife. I feared I'd probably not survive, and if I did, that I'd know nothing but remorse. But my wife and kids still had a chance. And if I removed myself from them, then they could go on, move on, grow, live, love, laugh, and maybe know joy again. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was the first selfless thought I had arrived at in years. It was the first time that I was willing to sacrifice what was best for me, in order for others to have what was best for them, because I loved them, and because it offered me an ounce of self-respect. It didn't all change overnight, but... almost. That one, selfless thought was like a seed. Once planted, it grew, and started to take over all the selfish thoughts and replace them with clearer, more empathetic emotions and ideas. I changed. I started to love and respect myself, and in doing so, was able to love and respect my wife and kids like I always should have. It changed everything.

The thing about a BS is that you cannot bullshit them. They know the difference between "real and fake" when it comes to their WS's thoughts and emotions, and will err on the side of "fake", so in order to trust their WS, they need to feel and see pure, unadulterated "realness". She started to see "real" empathy from me again. She started to see me being willing to be sacrificial, and/or consider my actions beyond the scope of myself. These are the things that had been absent for years. They are the same things that were absent during the affair. And they were the signs of "real change" that she needed to see to even begin to consider having any kind of relationship with me again. Our conversations changed from "how did this happen?" and instead became, "How do we, as survivors, move forward, together?" To be fair, my wife had also done a ton of hard work on herself, and had enough self-love to not devolve into the hurtful kind of person your husband has unfortunately become. I'm sure it's not who he wants to be. But sometimes, our trauma becomes our identity. He may feel as if he's not angry and hurt that it might tacitly feel as if he's "forgiven you" or that "it's okay", and he can't accept that. Being cheated on can make one feel like a complete fool and sucker, and that's a really tough thing to let your guard down from. It's safer to be angry and hurt all the time, that way, it protects him from being fucked over once again. Unfortunately, it also prevents all joy and life at the same time.

I tell you all this because I want you to realize that what you are doing now... isn't working. As others have said, he seems pretty angry and hurt right now, and from your description, it doesn't sound as if that's going to change if things keep going the same as they are now. But you cannot fix that. He has his own "work to do" and if he isn't willing or able to do that, then that's his burden to bear. The only thing you can do to help is to not make things worse.

I'm not suggesting that you leave. Rather, I'm suggesting that you do your best to step outside of yourself and the situation as best you can, and look at what needs to be done. If he hates you so much, then why is he even staying? What's the point? If he's always going to hate you, then why isn't he making an effort to at least separate if not divorce? He has some reason(s) for this. Hopefully, he'll share them with you. But if he won't, then you also need to decide what the end goal is here? If you are just going to live together in order to cause each other pain then that's senseless. Nothing changes if nothing changes. If he's not willing to do "something", such as IC/MC, do a couples weekend, read books, or even just go take care of his own mental/emotional health, then he puts himself into a victim role. You end up being the bad guy either way in that case, as you either stay, in which case you are the cheating spouse making his life hell, or you leave, in which case you dumped him twice and really showed what an asshole you are. See? You can't win either way, so take winning off the table and just assume the negative consequences will come to fruition no matter what, so do what's best regardless of how he portrays you.

The end goal isn't about saving the relationship. If that was the goal, then not having an affair would have done the trick. You already ended the relationship when the affair happened. The goal is also not about saving him. This whole shit-show was unfair to him, yes, and it is also unfair that he has to do anything to heal and recover. But that's how it is. Life isn't fair. He can be angry and blame you until the cows come home, but that won't make him feel any better. That's his choice to make however. No, the end goal is to save yourself. You were the catalyst to all of this. And you will still be you whether he stays or goes. When an apple fell on Newton's head, he didn't bitch about getting hit, he instead wondered why that happened in the first place. That is where you must be now. The pain you feel now is a consequence of your actions, a negative one. The trick is to change who you are and what you do so that you produce different consequences, and in doing so, start to feel better about who you are and what you bring to this world.

Breathe. This is a long journey and the scenery isn't great. But if you do the work, I promise you, whatever the end result is... it will be okay.

Thank you for your replies. I have been reading them over and over again. We had a few good days this week but were back again to not talking. My attempts of communicating are responded to with how he doesn't talk to losers and to go away. So I'm working on other stuff.

I plan to take a polygraph test, but he is unsupportive and not participating in identifying anything that might help him. I'm planning to get that done within the next week. I sent him an email with the questions and he muttered something indirectly along the lines of "using the money for divorce papers" in the other room.

I emailed him a "timeline 2.0" which basically tried to outline every potential conversation I had. Why it was him and how it lead to it turning into an affair and a kiss. Then I tried to explain how it ended and why. No response on that so far.

I tried to talk about things I have been talking about in therapy, he didn't want to talk about it. So I didn't push it.

My therapist tells me that it takes both of us to fix things. She pointed out to me that he isn't really participating in the relationship anymore. Lack of connection, communication, participation as a partner, and financially. He's present at the house but we only talk when he wants to talk and about what he wants to talk about. Sometimes I get that glimpse that we will be okay, when he starts to talk to me and let me in some. I think I hang on to this as hope each time.

But as my therapist says, something needs to change. And that's what I'm going to work on.
Talking doesn't help so I need to put my energy into my actions. - polygraph, timeline 2.0, focus on other things like health, work, goal setting, continuing to work and modify on my behaviors, respect his wishes, work on my values.

A big barrier that I need to admit is that I don't like to talk about my days at work. This isn't helping because I met the AP at work. So maybe I should talk whether he hears it or wants to listen to it or not. I only tell him about important conversations that matter to me but I think I will try to talk to him about everything. I work 12 hour days and sometimes I can work with 10+ different people per day (in a hospital). For awhile after the affair was found out, I tried to talk about work, but every story, every mans name, every situation, started to get used against me. I would say goodbye to leave and would be told to "have fun with Mike, Jim, Bob" etc. So I slowly reverted to not talking much about work again. I honestly hate working anymore. I used to enjoy my job but it's a constant reminder of how I messed up. I know that every time I go to work he's thinking again about what I did. He probably replays it and he's probably anxious that I'm doing the same things. He doesn't really understand, I am now more antisocial and less friendly than I ever been. I don't interact unless I have to. I don't have a personality anymore. I'm a shell of who I used to. But I have more boundaries now than I ever have. Its hard for me to show him because I feel like I can't talk to him about anything. So this will be another action maybe I should focus on- Talking about work all the time. Maybe I should keep notes of the conversations I have and with who and when so I can bring it up when I get home.

I need to let go of the outcome because either way what were currently doing isn't working (maybe it's working for him- a wife who rarely nags, has no say, no power, no control, no input, pays everything, cries and apologizes constantly, and takes care of almost all the household responsibilities without nagging). He's unhappy because of me. I want to be a partner worthy of him or anyone. Right now, I am not that.

Something I don’t recall you discussing. How was your relationship with your BH prior to your A?

Does his current personality, disposition, and demeanor share any similarities with how he was prior to your A?

Yes, in some ways. But now it's way worse.

When I think back about how it was before the affair, I would think that it was 50/50.
But I remember googling things like, how to handle angry husband, why do I feel left out, is my husband bipolar, etc.

He told me in 2018, he admitted to me that he was tired of being irritated all the time, that he had a hard time controlling his emotions, that he didn't know how to fix it. I don't think he ever really addressed it.

He used to bounce back between happy and mad. Its always been an easy switch between the two. He's always been a matter of fact guy and will argue his opinion to everyone.

I used to think I couldn't do anything or say anything right back then, now its 1000x worse.

I used to be unhappy a lot. I was on and off treatment for depression. I used to go to therapy because I felt unimportant and left out. I used to cry a lot at night. I could never figure out why, even when I would try therapy.

I remember he would get absorbed into a hobby and I felt like I didn't exist. It started to get worse in 2015/2016. I would stand in the doorway and beg for him to come to bed with me. I would say that I missed him. But I was always told I what I was doing was wrong.

Right before we got married, in 2017, he turned one of the rooms into a home office, but it slowly turned into his man cave. He would come home from work and basically live in there unless I planned something for us to do. He gets absorbed into his hobbies. He started to play guitar and drums on top of all of his other hobbies. I used to stand in the doorway of that office sometimes and try to tell him how I was feeling, how I felt unimportant, or I felt left out, or I missed him. I tried to talk to him. The outcome was that I was wrong. I was always tried to make feel stupid for having those feelings. Like I was trying to take him away from what he wanted to do. I used to plan things for us to do to try to connect with him. I didn't stop him from his hobbies, I would try to connect with him through them. That I was an idiot for being jealous of a room or left out over a room in the house. He would tell me to stop planning things for us.

But I built up resent. I started to compare him to other spouses and other men. I have always been the one responsible for things in this partnership: groceries, bills paid on time, pool cleaned, trash out, dog walked, house cleaned, plans made. Why do I have to work a 12 hour shift, come home to cook, and clean by myself? I hated it. I asked for help sometimes when the resent would build and I would explode. But I am told I was bitching all the time then.

I've always been terrible at identifying what I am feeling and why. It's something I am always working on. It was especially bad at this time. I was just living in the moment with what I was feeling. I never kept track of it. I've always avoided conflict and been a bad communicator. Looking back now, I bet I looked like a whiny baby.

Whenever I would actually have the balls to address something, I would always get reasons why I was wrong. It's because I was bad at keeping track. It seems that he needs verifiable evidence otherwise I am wrong. When, where, what etc. If I don't have that evidence, I am wrong. This is still the same now, except since I'm a cheating whore, I can take it or leave it.

We had a major life change in February of 2019, we hit the road together to travel. He went from working in the office to working from home and I was taking assignment contracts in various states. So we got to experience living in other parts of the US together. The room was gone and we were living minimalistic lifestyle. We had a lot of fun together and experienced a lot of new things together. But suspicion and a series of events led to DDAY in December 2019. And here were are.

And because of my choice to reach outside of the marriage and lie a lot, these are now my consequences, and just another choice.

Don't get me wrong, I loved him (still love him) and I really enjoyed spending time with him. I wanted a life with him. Things weren't always bad. We had a lot of fun together and enjoyed a lot of the same things. There's a lot of good reasons I married him and still want to remain married to him. Right now he seems broken and so much more colder.

Our relationship started out of cheating in high school. I wanted out of that relationship, instead of confronting and dealing with what I was feeling and wanting, I developed a connection with my BH, he kissed me, and he rescued me by ending the other relationship. So it makes sense that in some ways, I was starting to do the same shortly after getting married.

I don't want to blame him for my choices. My choice to cheat was 100% me. I could have done many other things instead of what I did. I just want to put that out there. I rationalized so many excuses back then for my behaviors and actions. The process of discovery has really pushed me to examine myself. I lived selfishly in the moment and try hard every day to be different.

[This message edited by kccalifornia at 6:10 AM, Friday, December 9th]

Instead of pondering why he's still remaining married to you, ruminating on all his failings as a husband, and getting frustrated about not knowing how to fix this, why not start with asking yourself why you still want to be married to him? Specifically, what is it about this man and this relationship that you don't want to live without?

Once you've straightened that out in your head, you can think about new actions to help rebuild the relationship... or at least have the catalyst for a discussion about your shared future together.

Or maybe after contemplating this question, you'll decide that the only thing holding you back from divorce is your shared history and fear of being alone.

He does not know what needs. He is lost. It is not important What you do it is important that you try.

When you get empathy it will just come naturally.