SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My wife and I are now just shy of 17 months from D-Day. I've learned a lot. She's learned a lot. About both infidelity and each other.

One thing I hadn't learned a lot about was the process and progression that went from a coworker hitting my wife up on Facebook Messenger to innocently tell her she should look up something about their boss online, to "we should get a hotel room."

I've asked her, "How did it get to that point? What the hell did you guys talk about? When did you realize things were getting inappropriate?" Etc. I always got vague "we talked a lot about epilepsy, then he started telling me I was beautiful. Then one thing led to another and I let it happen." The Cliff Notes version, with a lot of "I don't know," "I'm not sure," or "I don't remember" answers.

I found out that he did indeed hit her up on Messenger one day to gossip about their boss and point her toward some damaging info he found online about him. Which, BTW, is ultimately what got him fired and trespassed. Ha.

Then he started messaging her more and more often. Telling her how beautiful he thought she was. How amazing she was. She saw this as fairly harmless at first, but he persisted. Then he started calling her using the voice chat feature on Messenger. Then he started calling her more and more often. He told her how lonely he was and how long it's been since he had someone while she vented about our marriage. She started feeling overwhelmed and unsure what to do, but she loved the attention.

Then he started asking her, "Are you my girl?" The first couple of times she said, "I'm married." He persisted. Until one day she gave in. He asked again, "Are you my girl?"

She said, "Yes, I'm your girl."

Then he started suggesting they should get a hotel room. She blew it off as a joke the first time. The second time she more or less said, "Let me think about it." Then she went to a friend and confided in her, seeking advice because she wasn't sure what to do. This friend then helped her cook up a cover story. "Tell Pogre you're staying the night with me because my husband is in the hospital and I want the company."

That tipped the scale for her. The next time he suggested they get a hotel, she said, "Sure."

That was it. That was the moment. Or moments.

That's what I've been asking for the last 17 months.

The venting and oversharing weren't good, but the first significant line was crossed when she agreed to be "his girl." The hotel agreement was the decisive escalation into physical infidelity.

I know this is trickle truth. It's not the type of trickle truth that changes what happened, when it happened, or how many times it happened, but it adds significant pieces of the puzzle I've been assembling over the last 17 months, and it's a lot.

It hurts.

It hurts knowing that when another man laid claim to my wife... my wife... she said, "Yes, I'm your girl."

It hurts knowing she was actually conflicted about the hotel, and instead of coming to me, she went to one of her asshole friends, who nudged her over the edge. I'm not putting the blame on this friend, and neither is my wife. She made the choices. She was already conflicted, and he was being persistent. Chances are she would have folded somewhere down the road regardless, but that friend played a key role in this, and I hate her guts now.

For the record, my wife no longer talks to this friend at all. She hasn't in quite a while. That friendship is over now, but still...

I don't want this to sound like she hasn't been doing work on us and making huge changes, because she has. The new details don't really change anything aside from the fact that they could have been shared a long time ago.

I also don't want to punish her for finally telling me the details I've been asking for. She knows it upsets me, but she told me anyway. I had to let some of that steam out, though. We had some intense discussions about it.

I'm not even really sure what I expect from this thread. I suppose it's more of a vent than anything.

Some more good that came from this is that we've spent the last week talking a lot about her facing what she did. Like, really facing it.

Don't get me wrong, she's been doing very well under the circumstances. She's been very remorseful, loving, affectionate, transparent, and accountable. But I'm wondering what's really going on under the hood. What internal work has she been doing?

She's also been very apologetic, but her version of apologizing pretty much boiled down to, "I'm so sorry for everything."

"Everything."

Hm.

So, you're sorry for everything. For all of the lies to me. To your friends. To your family. The lies about me. The deceit. Telling me, "He's a GREAT guy!" Telling me that you're going to stay here and enjoy your evening. Trying to jump out of a moving vehicle to get away from the confrontation. Abandoning me on the side of the road. Walking away from me and disappearing into the dark at my most critical time of need.

All of it.

You're just going to pile all of that into one box, label it "everything," then close the lid and apologize for it without actually examining the contents of the box?

Not good enough.

So we've been having some intense conversations the last week or so. She's now opening the box. She's naming specific things that are in it. She's apologizing, and crying, for them individually.

She's been doing a lot of that lately.

She's also digging back through a lot of the "I don't remembers," blowing the dust off, and filling in some gaps for me.

And honestly, that's probably the part of all of this that matters most to me right now.

Oof. I remember these talks.

Excruciating. Draining. Important. Necessary. I am glad she is stepping up.

I know this is trickle truth. It's not the type of trickle truth that changes what happened, when it happened, or how many times it happened, but it adds significant pieces of the puzzle I've been assembling over the last 17 months, and it's a lot.

ABSOLUTELY. Having pieces of a puzzle that has had gaps for so long really HELPS you to get a better picture of what was happening. It does hurt...but you may soon find that you are going to go so much more forward in your healing after your brain has processed all of this information .

I don't want this to sound like she hasn't been doing work on us and making huge changes, because she has. The new details don't really change anything aside from the fact that they could have been shared a long time ago.

They sure could have! BUT...her sharing this with you now shows the huge change she has made .

I remember once...it may have been around the time where you are now...I asked my H if he ever created ads on Craigslist asking for NSA sex. He had already told me that he was searching Craigslist ads for NSA sex...but for some reason that thought came into my head to ask him if HE did any ads. He immediately told me NO. For some reason I asked if he was lying to me. He immediately told me YES . I was stunned! He had been doing so well with giving me information...so WHY lie now??!! When I asked him about this he told me that my question caught him off guard and he just went to what he was familiar with when he was cheating . I then asked him why he decided to tell the truth. He said that as soon as he said NO...he felt awful. So when he was given another chance he told the truth.

This HURT. After my brain calmed down though I realized that my H was trying. He could have kept up the lie and I would have never known because he had deleted all of those ads from his email list. But he didn't. He chose to NOT lie when asked again. He then told me how he made the ads saying that he was a happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country. Happily married??? Yeah right!! But he insisted that was what he had written. I let that go...but it was really hard for me to believe he would write THAT!

Then I found out from on here that Craigslist keeps an account of every ad that has been placed ! I already had all of my H's passwords...so I went into Craigslist and sure enough...the ads were there! They actually DID say he was a happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country!! Being able to see those ads hurt...but it was also a verification that what my H told me...that piece of the puzzle...FIT. That was the last time my H lied to me...and when he saw how much it HELPED me to get another piece of the puzzle together...he started opening up more to me .

What internal work has she been doing?

It sure looks like your wife is trying . My H said he didn't want to hurt me any more than he did so he balked at first with the answers to the questions I asked. This may be why your wife hesitated too. Like my H though...she seems to be realizing that telling the TRUTH...even though it hurts at first...is what will help you to HEAL .

ABSOLUTELY. Having pieces of a puzzle that has had gaps for so long really HELPS you to get a better picture of what was happening. It does hurt...but you may soon find that you are going to go so much more forward in your healing after your brain has processed all of this information smile .

I know, and I also know that while this hurts right now, there are some big questions I've had for a while now that I can finally put to rest. I know now the progression and how it happened.

This HURT. After my brain calmed down though I realized that my H was trying. He could have kept up the lie and I would have never known because he had deleted all of those ads from his email list. But he didn't. He chose to NOT lie when asked again. He then told me how he made the ads saying that he was a happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country. Happily married??? Yeah right!! But he insisted that was what he had written. I let that go...but it was really hard for me to believe he would write THAT!

Then I found out from on here that Craigslist keeps an account of every ad that has been placed shocked ! I already had all of my H's passwords...so I went into Craigslist and sure enough...the ads were there! They actually DID say he was a happily married man looking for NSA sex while working in that country!! Being able to see those ads hurt...but it was also a verification that what my H told me...that piece of the puzzle...FIT. That was the last time my H lied to me...and when he saw how much it HELPED me to get another piece of the puzzle together...he started opening up more to me.

Yeah, ouch. However, I perfectly understand how you felt when that piece of the puzzle clicked into place and then you were able to even confirm it later.

I know once my mind calms down I'll be able to integrate this info into the larger story I've spent the last 17 months building in my mind. I hate that I got trickle truthed. I've been spending a lot of time explaining how awesome she's been for the last year and a half, and it's a little bit humbling to come here and talk about withheld secrets, but I also know it's par for the course and that no one is perfect.

At least it wasn't a major bombshell that changed the entire shape of the story I'd been operating from all this time. It's just more high resolution detail on the same picture.

It sure looks like your wife is trying. My H said he didn't want to hurt me any more than he did so he balked at first with the answers to the questions I asked. This may be why your wife hesitated too. Like my H though...she seems to be realizing that telling the TRUTH...even though it hurts at first...is what will help you to HEAL.

That's exactly how I'm choosing to view this. Like I said, I don't want to punish her for her honesty, even if it was late coming. She's promised to tell me if anything else comes to mind, and I don't want to discourage her from that.

I know she's terrified that I could decide one day that the damage is just too much and I could tell her that I just can't do it. Plus she feels horrible as she's realizing just how much damage this has done to me. I am however, a very resilient person. I've been through a lot and had a really rough childhood until I hit my teen years. Then things just got messier, lol.

I know she's trying to the best of her ability. Her TBI and her epilepsy have made a mess of her higher executive functioning and she can have issues with impulsively and forecasting long term consequences, but she's learned a huge, huge lesson from this. I'm very confident there will not be a repeat, tho I know better than to just assume it could never happen again. We both need to actively keep choosing each other every day and I think I can handle it. I think she can, too. Despite this catastrophe we've grown a lot closer and we're a lot more open and transparent with our feelings now. Communication has improved a lot.

Thanks for the encouraging post. I really appreciate it. <--smiley in your honor!

[This message edited by Pogre at 12:22 AM, Friday, September 11th]

We both need to actively keep choosing each other every day and I think I can handle it.

LOVE this!! And the smiley too !

I may have a little insight that hopefully could be of assistance. I'll try to hit the highlights.

My son also has epilepsy, but his seizures typically only happen while he's asleep so it's very difficult to track them. But the brain is complicated. There's never just one thing. He is also neurodivergent (I think that's the spelling). Not autistic, not really Asperger's. He doesn't hyperfocus or have trouble with social or emotional cues. He does have fairly pronounced sensory processing disorder, which mainly manifests as struggling with certain textures or sounds. They bother him more than would someone else, but it was never problematic. At the end of the day, we just see him as delightfully goofy.

But when he reached 17 and was more or less fully grown, the doctors started adjusting his meds to account for his size and then the $h1t hit the fan. He developed a raging condition of OCD. It was crippling.

OCD is often misunderstood. People associate it with the "C" part, the compulsive behavior, but it's the "O" that is truly damaging. The obsessive thoughts that cannot be quelled.

He became fixated on his health and had convinced himself that he had some form of cancer or heart disease. He counted them up when he was lucid (honestly, not autistic. He's been tested) and he had convinced himself at different times that he had contacted 23 different diseases over a roughly two year span.

It was heartbreaking. I would come home, and invariably he would try to show me some research he had done that convinced him he was in the early stages of some kind of terminal illness. It was a conversation we had repeatedly, where I had to point out the flaws in the "proof" he had found. We saw every specialist we could, all of whom told him he was perfectly healthy. His sister, my oldest, is a nurse, and he would often call her in a near panic at having discovered he was in the early stages of something and she would also talk him down.

This all culminated when he went away to college, about an hour away. We knew he was losing weight, but we weren't really aware had bad it was. He had run cross country in high school (it was pretty much the only sport he could participate in because of epilepsy) and he hated being one of the slowest members of the team so he began watching his weight to improve his performance. In college he essentially stopped eating. He believed he was at risk of a heart condition because of sodium, so he only ate low sodium foods and and began drinking water at a very unhealthy rate. Like gallons. That was his compulsive behavior. No one really noticed it because everyone walked around with hydroflasks and were always on guard for dehydration.

This all culminated in him having a massive grand mal seizure at a fraternity event, his first one ever while awake. Luckily one of his fraternity brothers was an EMT and a nursing student and was nearby, so he got him the help he needed. He ended up in ICU for a week with one of the most serious cases of hyponatremia (dangerously low sodium) the staff had ever seen. As in, below 100. His GP and neurologist both said it was a miracle he had survived, especially without some kind of permanent brain damage. He had also gone from 190 to 145 in less than 5 months. At 5'10" he was incredibly frail. I couldn't believe what he had done to himself.

I'm happy to say he saw what had happened for what it was. He still has OCD, probably always will, but he is much better in managing it. He has gained back all of his weight and then some.

Which brings me back to your wife, Pogre. I see some similarities in how she was mis-processing what was happening to her and why she, more so than most, would shut out any thoughts she was having at the time of her A. The lack of executive functioning is a bigger deal than many would believe. When my son and I discuss this now, he says at the time he was constantly bombarded by his own brain shouting misinformation directly into his ear and sending him high-resolution images of what was going on in his body and he felt he had no way of dealing with it. We did therapy at the time and were reluctant to do much with meds since that is what brought this on to begin with. So he tried to manage the anxiety without dealing with the thoughts. Water seemed a safe way of doing that, and the rest is history.

He hates thinking about it or recalling it now because he feels vulnerable, that by invoking his mindset at that time he may slip back into those patterns.

I wish there were some kind of feature on this site where you could include "Not An Excuse" in big neon letters. But explanations can be helpful. In looking at your wife, her poor executive reasoning found the dopamine rush that came from the illicit attention of the limp-dicked POS and she ran with it because she doesn't have the barrier that a healthy brain has warning her. Looking back, she probably now sees every misstep, but her miswired brain fed her misinformation that she didn't have the skills to process.

It's "Not An Excuse," because she did real, lasting damage to her marriage. But, like my son, he went the direction he did because at the time it seemed to reduce the heightened anxiety he was feeling. And he ended up damaging himself, but thank God, nothing permanent.

Hope this helps.

[This message edited by 1994 at 4:02 PM, Friday, September 11th]

This is one of the gray areas in recovery. On one hand, TT is very damaging to R, and a BS may start with a commitment to end R if any TT is experienced.

Then something like this happens 17 months into a good R. It may be TT; it may be a newly remembered event, triggered by something that new. But it looks a lot like TT.

I think you're making the right choice. You've got a lot of evidence that your WS is committed to changing from cheater to good partner. In itself, this does not kill R. But the spidey senses are reawakened. Time will tell.

He is also neurodivergent (I think that's the spelling). Not autistic, not really Asperger's. He doesn't hyperfocus or have trouble with social or emotional cues. He does have fairly pronounced sensory processing disorder, which mainly manifests as struggling with certain textures or sounds. They bother him more than would someone else, but it was never problematic. At the end of the day, we just see him as delightfully goofy.

Well this complicates things for my wife and I, too. I've done a lot of counseling and deep diving into my childhood and even a lot of my mannerisms and quirks that persist still to this day.

Since childhood, I have, and still do, experience everything you listed above. Hyperfocus. Trouble with social and emotional cues and pronounced sensory processing. I'm extremely averse to certain textures and sounds.

Touching cardboard and certain types of paper make me break out in goosebumps, chills, and sweats. It's extremely unpleasant for me. I had to wear gloves at work, and even through the gloves I experienced a lot of discomfort handling cardboard. I can break out in goosebumps just thinking about touching a cardboard box.

I also have impulsive stimming behaviors with cloth edges. Like pillow cases and the edges of my t shirts. I used to ruin my shirts when I was younger doing it. I still do it, but figured out less destructive ways to soothe without ruining my clothes, lol.

Hearing eating sounds drives me up the wall. I have to mute soft drink commercials. I get obsessed with things and research them to death. I have a lot of trouble pulling myself away from my current interests. I have very strong insistence on sameness. I stack and place things very particularly and "perfect." Changes in my routine are highly upsetting beyond what normal people experience. I can sit and watch my washing machine cycle for an hour and I find it oddly soothing. There are many other odd things and quirks about me that have persisted since my earliest childhood memories.

I had what my counselor suspects was an extreme breakdown, possibly autistic burnout. I haven't been tested because the cost and/or process just seems so daunting, but my counselor suspects I may be have undiagnosed ASD level 1 and strongly encouraged me to get tested. Tho I'm very functional until I burned out and suffered a collapse and profound loss of function.

Up until then I was a pretty successful meat department manager because I was able to channel a lot of those tendencies into strengths, tho many of my employees thought I was a bit weird and overly nitpicky and fussy about organization. I'm almost certain that I'm neurodivergent. An epiphany discovered in my mid 50s that actually brings a pretty big sense of relief because it explains SO MUCH about my entire life. When I told my mother of this hypothesis she said "well, that sure would explain a lot." She wasn't surprised. I had so much trouble making friends as a child and never understood why.

I used alcohol as a masking agent for decades. It calmed my nervous system and made socializing so much easier for me. When I quit drinking is when I suffered that collapse. I withdrew from my social circle and lost over 30 lbs. I dropped down from 160 to 128 lbs on my 6' tall frame. It was really bad.

That's around when I was put on sertraline. I think I've talked about that enough here already. It made things even worse for me. It was the wrong treatment for me.

I never planned to dump all of this info about me, but your post was just too much for me to pass up. My wife and I are both neurodivergent and it explains a lot about both of us.

I'm happy to say he saw what had happened for what it was. He still has OCD, probably always will, but he is much better in managing it. He has gained back all of his weight and then some.

I'm very happy for you! I genuinely mean that. I've learned a little about OCD also because it's one of the things that were considered for me. I have some of those tendencies, but it doesn't overwhelm me or necessarily disrupt my life.

Going through life being the "weird one" and having issues no one understands is miserable. Absolutely miserable. Having a diagnosis, even without treatment, is so liberating and relieving. I have a lot more self compassion and my wife even understand me better now. It's been one great big light bulb moment for us both.

I'm so happy that your son got some answers and found some relief. I really am. I wish someone would have been there for me in my teens like you are for your son. I already posted in your other thread that I think you're a good guy, and this just reinforces that with me.

Which brings me back to your wife, Pogre. I see some similarities in how she was mis-processing what was happening to her and why she, more so than most, would shut out any thoughts she was having at the time of her A. The lack of executive functioning is a bigger deal than many would believe.

It really is. Along with my deep dive into myself I also did a lot of deep diving into TBI and epilepsy and the effects on executive functioning. I've said many times that my wife, while apparently mostly "normal" is wired differently. She just is.

I wish there were some kind of feature on this site where you could include "Not An Excuse" in big neon letters. But explanations can be helpful. In looking at your wife, her poor executive reasoning found the dopamine rush that came from the illicit attention of the limp-dicked POS and she ran with it because she doesn't have the barrier that a healthy brain has warning her. Looking back, she probably now sees every misstep, but her miswired brain fed her misinformation that she didn't have the skills to process.

It's "Not An Excuse," because she did real, lasting damage to her marriage. But, like my son, he went the direction he did because at the time it seemed to reduce the heightened anxiety he was feeling. And he ended up damaging himself, but thank God, nothing permanent.

I whole heartedly agree with this section of your post. My wife had convinced herself of some things that weren't true, and she was desperately seeking something, anything to relieve what her mind had constructed. Back to your "not an excuse" disclaimer, tho, she had other options. So executive functioning misfire or not, she still chose the most destructive one therefore she's not off the hook. Tho understanding that about her better does offer an explanation - not an excuse - for why she did what she did.

Hope this helps.

Oh god yes. Thank you for opening the door for me to get some of that off of my chest, and you have no idea how much I appreciate your understanding of our situation.

I have said from the very beginning that I thought we were outliers and I still believe that. While many of the behaviors and actions around infidelity share many universal similarities, ours included, there are many unique factors that make our situation a little different from most.

Thank you so much for this insightful and thoughtful post, 1994. I really did appreciate it.

This is one of the gray areas in recovery. On one hand, TT is very damaging to R, and a BS may start with a commitment to end R if any TT is experienced.

Then something like this happens 17 months into a good R. It may be TT; it may be a newly remembered event, triggered by something that new. But it looks a lot like TT.

I think you're making the right choice. You've got a lot of evidence that your WS is committed to changing from cheater to good partner. In itself, this does not kill R. But the spidey senses are reawakened. Time will tell.

My nervous system is rattled, no doubt, but my "spidey senses" aren't on high alert. I agree that this was most likely trickle truth, but it's not:

Actually it was 3 affairs.

Or

Actually it was 3 years instead of 6 weeks.

Or

I got pregnant and then had an abortion.

It was information that gave me a higher resolution picture of the same image. Should she have told me earlier? Yes, for sure, but it wasn't a huge distortion of what really happened. As discussed above, my wife's executive functioning issues and coping skills may well have prevented her from even accessing that memory until I came up with the right line of questioning and was able to convince her she was safe enough to share it.

I have some more processing to do, but I'm not viewing this as a major setback. Her actions and behaviors over the last 16 months have been very consistent and very reassuring. I'm feeling safe with her again. I'm not sensing that there are any deep, dark, or dangerous life altering secrets hiding under the surface with her anymore. I haven't felt that for a while.

I guess what would matter most to me would be if this was in reality a "oopsie, I forgot about this" or "I needed to keep this hidden because it makes me look even worse." Obviously a simplification, but you know what I mean. The former I could understand. The latter, would never allow me to believe anything else going forward without some kind of proof.

I guess what would matter most to me would be if this was in reality a "oopsie, I forgot about this" or "I needed to keep this hidden because it makes me look even worse." Obviously a simplification, but you know what I mean. The former I could understand. The latter, would never allow me to believe anything else going forward without some kind of proof.

That's pretty much the question we've been discussing throughout the thread, although I don't think it's quite as binary as "oops, I forgot" versus "I deliberately kept this hidden because it made me look worse."

I think the reality may involve elements of avoidance, compartmentalization, shame, executive-function issues, incomplete memory access, and yes, probably some degree of withholding. Nothing she told me contradicts the original story in any way. In fact, if anything, what she told me doesn't paint her in a favorable light. If she were deliberately constructing a self protective version, I'd think she'd tell me something a lot more self preserving.

What matters to me now is that these new details haven't fundamentally changed the story I've been operating from, and she's currently moving toward examining and sharing painful information rather than away from it.

Be careful about one important thing: is true that in betrayal there are line that once crossed make the pain greater and harder to recover, that is clear.

The one important overlooked aspect of when betrayal occurs is when the emotional energy, call it even currency, leaks outside the couple.

No matter what problems you need to vent about your partner, you should vent at them, not outside, keep the emotional energy inside the relationship.

This is not like asking help to a friend, venting or belittling your partner in anyway with others is a symptom of the betrayal. If it happens, you are already drifting out.

That is important because is the critical moment when you could catch yourself and prevent to slip in the swamp.

It should be a wake up call. If your emotional energy is stolen from the relationship and redirected outside, then you are crossing the line into infidelity. You must choose if to pull back right then or will unavoidably spiral until is too late.

I like she is doing the work and I said before, seems you are gonna make it. Feels like it.

The pieces of the puzzle are important even if they pant a picture of horror. The framework for the puzzle to have been built though, is that emotional energy leak that occurred way before the pieces got in motion.

It might be useful to work on that moment to not only clean the board, but remove the framework where such plot can be weaved.

Be careful about one important thing: is true that in betrayal there are line that once crossed make the pain greater and harder to recover, that is clear.

The one important overlooked aspect of when betrayal occurs is when the emotional energy, call it even currency, leaks outside the couple.

No matter what problems you need to vent about your partner, you should vent at them, not outside, keep the emotional energy inside the relationship.

This is not like asking help to a friend, venting or belittling your partner in anyway with others is a symptom of the betrayal. If it happens, you are already drifting out.

That is important because is the critical moment when you could catch yourself and prevent to slip in the swamp.

It should be a wake up call. If your emotional energy is stolen from the relationship and redirected outside, then you are crossing the line into infidelity. You must choose if to pull back right then or will unavoidably spiral until is too late.

I like she is doing the work and I said before, seems you are gonna make it. Feels like it.

The pieces of the puzzle are important even if they pant a picture of horror. The framework for the puzzle to have been built though, is that emotional energy leak that occurred way before the pieces got in motion.

It might be useful to work on that moment to not only clean the board, but remove the framework where such plot can be weaved.

I hear you, and I agree with you. And honestly, I think that "emotional energy leak" started well before the "are you my girl" stage. By the time things got there, she had already been treading the slippery slope for a while.

That's something she and I have talked about quite a bit. She understands now that once you start taking problems in your primary relationship to someone outside of it, especially someone of the opposite sex, you can easily become emotionally connected to them. You can start building something you never intended to build. Looking back, she can see how the little steps added up.

So I think you're right that it's important to look not only at the individual pieces of the puzzle, but at the framework that allowed them to start forming in the first place. That's something we're working on too.

[This message edited by Pogre at 8:03 PM, Friday, September 11th]